Two Gentleman of Verona-Best Musical?

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 4/15/07 at 11:56pm

I don't know how many of you saw the original, but for those of you who did (or even those of you who didn't)- was it really better than Follies?

[ahmelie]

Posted: 4/15/07 at 11:57pm

No chance in Hell.

Biggest rob ever.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:14am

I have to say, I loved Two Gents, but was SHOCKED that it won Best Musical. And I was just a kid.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:21am

A lot has already been written about this...

But to summerize -at the time, TWO GENTS was by far the better critically reviewed and financially successful production. In Steven Suskin's great anthology of Broadway reviews, TWO GENTS is actually one of only 3-4 shows that opened between the mid 60s- mid 80s to receive across the board rave reviews.

Frankly, I love TWO GENTS, and would love to see it given a really first rate revival (the production a couple of years ago in Central Park was not very good).

Who cares if FOLLIES didn't win the Tony? Since when has quality ever dictated awards? What was the last Best Picture winner at the Oscars that was actually the best film of the year?

FOLLIES' legacy is its own reward.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:32am

I was shocked that it won becasue it was really quite out-of-the-mainstream as musicals go, which is why I probably loved it so much being as young as I was. (I know the two-record set backwards and forwards even now.) I didn't think it had a chance in hell of winning, so I was completely taken by surprise, Of course, I didn't understand then how meaningless award shows really are.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:32am

Lots of people at the time found FOLLIES to be a morose and depressing indictment of marriage and what it had to say about getting older and regretting the mistakes of the past hit way too close to home for many who were turned off by it. While the score, staging and design were all very well received (and all won Tonys), the book was viewed as a banal, nihilistic soap opera. The show's reputation has obviously grown immensely over the year's and is now considered by most to be a masterpiece of the musical theatre (though it's still not a widely popular show with general audiences and has never been a long-running hit).

That best book and Best Musical went to TWO GENTLEMEN that year was something that I could never understand until I saw the production of it in the Park a couple of summers ago. It all made sense. TWO GENTLEMEN is in many ways the anti-FOLLIES -- fun, splashy, multicultural with a bouncy score and a strong satirical anti-war sentiment which obviously resonated with the Vietnam era audiences and Tony voters. FOLLIES was more a show to be admired and respected (hence the 7 Tonys) than perhaps one to be loved by some voters (and history has shown that more often than not, for Best Musical, Tony voters pick the well-executed fun, light, commercial entertaining show over the more serious "artistic" choices). I think TWO GENTLEMEN felt like a smart, life-affirming, youthful celebration which may be what people wanted and needed to see during that difficult moment in time, rather than a show, no matter how ingenious, that forces you to confront all your failures and disappointments and regrets and perhaps even question whether or not you married the right person.

Updated On: 4/16/07 at 12:32 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:35am

I remember being enchanted by Two Gentlemen in the park, walking around singing "I'm very happy for my best friend..." and I remember that everyone else who saw it in my little world (my friends at school--I was 15--my family)--they all liked it too.

But Follies was my obsession. I kept dragging friends and relatives back to it--and NONE of them liked it.

So by the time it got to the Tonys, I felt like I was a Follies martyr. And when it didn't win--and then when it closed--these were simply egregious injustices being perpetrated on ME. Because Follies (and I) were just too good for this world.

Does that answer your question?

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:39am

My friends and I loved TWO GENTS. My parents and I love FOLLIES. That should say it all.


"We are brothers, we are friends up until the day that eternity...ends!!!!!"

[Caroline-Q-or-TBoo]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:43am

love has driven me sane

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:59am

I have a live recording of TWO GENTS from the Park and the audience response is one of the most authentically enthusiastic I've ever heard at a musical. During the finale there are moments you can't even hear the music and lyrics because the audience hysteria is so loud.

TWO GENTS also managed to be incredibly clever - citing pop culture references that were so of the moment and so *in* with New York audiences that they were practically dated just a couple of years after the show opened. (ex. "My life resembled THE CHERRY ORCHARD" -- NYSF's previous show at the Public)

FOLLIES is surely the show to hold up better over time, but I don't believe that every musical has to live up to that criteria to have once been great.

Posted: 4/16/07 at 1:35am

Good points though, Margo yous ay the score was well received--if you read Barnes review in the Ne York Times (it's up on their archive) he cares very little for the score callign the pastiche songs underwhelming and making you want to just merely hear the original better songs and calling the new music (I think) "movie music" that he predicts (wrongly we now know) will be forgotten in the future and certainly never pastiched by future composers... I'm often surprised at how little many c ritics cared for Sondehim's music until at least the late 70s--although Barnes, like all the others, does heap piles of praise on Sondheim's lyrics (which I think drove him crazy)

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 1:41am

Trust me, I well remember Barnes and Simon's dismissive reviews of the score, but they were the exception and not the rule, which is why the score won the Tony that year over JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR, AIN'T SUPPOSED TO DIE A NATURAL DEATH and the Best Musical winner, VERONA.

Posted: 4/16/07 at 2:00am

I forgot JCS was up that same year-- That wasn't one of the odd years when lyrics and music were awarded seperately was it?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 2:06am

No, that only happened once -- the year before when Sondheim received separate awards for his music and lyrics for COMPANY.

[Jon]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 5:53am

Meanwhile, the biggest commercial hit of the year was a little show called GREASE.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 6:22am

I remember sitting in line at the Public to get tickets and watching a verbal argument over which show is better. It's a never-ending debate, topped off by John Guare's famous Tony speech, "I don't know what to say. I invested in Follies."
Updated On: 4/16/07 at 06:22 AM

[tazber]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 6:57am

this snippet has been permanently lodged in my brain for well over 15 years now:

She's a calla lilly lady
She's a water lilly lady
She's a calla lilly lady
I want my best freind to be ha-a-a-ppy
But not happier than me!

[philcrosby]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 9:26am

I saw the original Broadway production of TWO GENTS and have to say that MichaelBennett and Margo have it exactly right. It was a happy joyous, multi-cultural event that was created in the streets of New York and brought some of that joy to the Park and then later to Broadway. It was beautiful to look at and listen to, and the cast was young and amazing.

At the time the adjective most used to describe FOLLIES was "depressing." Obviously time has been kinder to FOLLIES than to TWO GENTS.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 10:00am

Telephones, frisbees and bicycles. Not your mother's Shakespeare!

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 11:48am

I love Follies and I love Two Gentlemen of Verona. I would be happy to see a revival with revamped orchestrations at least.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 11:55am

I saw the recent revival in the park as well and it was the most joyous musical threatre experience I've ever attended. The whole time I was watching, I was thinking, "Now I know how it won Best Musical". The audience response to Bring All the Boys Back Home was overwhelming when I saw it. I can only imagine what it must have been like during the original run.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 11:57am

I was always fiercely anti-TWO GENTS until I caught the Kathleen Marshall production two years ago. The OBCR doesn't really capture what a smart, fun show it is.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:08pm

Having not seen the original production, I of course had nothing to compare it to. That said, the production in the Park cemented Kathleen Marshall in my mind as one of the best new director/choreographers. Her production was so energetic, the cast loved doing it (even though some of them coughRosarioDawsoncough were very weak), and you could really tell that, above all, Kim Grigsby had the time of her life conducting.

Bring All The Boys Back Home obviously got the most applause, though both times I saw the show, it was a very tepid reception at first.

I'd really love to hear some of it again (besides whats on YT). Borstal is right - the album doesn't capture how fun it is. You need an audience cheering to really feel it.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:24pm

I'm still shocked there hasn't been a mention of transferring Marshall's production for a Broadway revival, especially given the current political climate. With the right cast, it could easily be a hit.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 4/16/07 at 12:39pm

I don't think Marshall's production was really strong enough for Broadway. I think she missed a lot of the humour and I think a few people were miscast. Rene Goldsbery didn't even come close to what Jonelle Allen achieves on that live recording. I keep hoping maybe Reprise will do it in L.A.