"WHY HAS THERE NEVER BEEN AN ALL-BLACK REVIVAL OF "GYPSY"?- Page 3

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 7:14pm

ChgoTheatreGuy said: "I feel that Sheryl Lee Ralph would be amazing as Rose. My dream Rose would be Patti Labelle, unfortunately from seeing her in concert sooo many times, she isn't always the best at remembering the exact words to the songs that she sings, not to mention all of the dialogue that her character has to remember."

Sheryl. Now that is a take I would like to see (I’m used to her in more upbeat/clean roles, but would love to see her get messy with some Gypsy).

Also, for what it’s worth, BWAYBaby2, “Perhaps instead of appropriating a white people vehicle- vehicles that are more authentic can be explored” is an idiotic and ignorant comment. As are most of the things you care to post. Hope that clears things up! 

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 8:07pm

g.d.e.l.g.i. said: "joevitus said: "...you still won't respond honestly when I point out that your growing up with Jesus Christ Superstar probably helped form your own ideas about greater racial inclusivity. You just keep dancing around and joshing and not at all answering that one (some talk about your ideal cast being all-Black when your own posts on your ideal production proved otherwise)."

Leaving aside your theory about any influence JCShad on my ideas about inclusivity -- I'm sure it played some role, but that's honestly not the primary reason -- I did answer your second point when I said that posts on my "ideal production" (mostly on another forum, no less, so not really sure why you're bringing them up here, a place where I simply opined it would've been great had it happened, not that it was my ideal, which is something else entirely, and when I did make a post about it here, I merely expounded on how effective I felt the concept to be) reflected an earlier reality. My current reality, for that gospel rendition at least, is all-black. I even made it clear that I wouldn't make the same choices with the words "I wouldn't make the same choice at 32 that I did at 20, nor (I think) would anyone."

I notice you didn't address that in your reply. Any particular reason? Perhaps because it didn't fit your narrative of me not answering your point(s)?"

You seem obsessed with name calling for some reason. Been at it from the start in this exchange. What happened to you?

All I've said was people aren't surprised that any cast is dominated by a particular ethnic group because that's the social structure they see all around them. And I added casting more PoC in various roles will provide good role models. Somehow that's brought on an onslaught of both "Pollyanna, I wish I lived in your world" comments and, antithetically, "Oh, honey" comments about my supposedly tolerating racism. You still haven't squared that circle (one is either a rosey-eyed innocent or a bigot, not both).

Again, I'm tired of this bitchy back and forth and would rather talk about a Gypsy revival. When  you say something more substantive in response to me, maybe I'll feel it needs direct addressing. As for now, you aren't either representing what I've said accurately or you're trying to twist it for  your own ends. Can't see the point in going down that rabbit hole.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/20/22 at 8:22pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "Gypsy is the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her sister- June Havoc. They were not black. Why has there never been an all-white Mahalia Jackson story- this is a ridiculous topic."

I wonder, had you avoided calling this discussion ridiculous, if you would have still been attacked and the attack upvoted. I think it would have happened either way, unfortunately. More and more it becomes clear there's no way to have a reasonable, dispassionate conversation around the topic of color conscious casting (unless everyone holds the exact same opinion--then they pat each other on the back for being so clear-headed). 

I don't think it much matters what race the woman is who plays Rose--it's more of a great dramatic role than an attempt at historical authenticity, no matter who plays it. And, as a comparison, I don't think anyone would blink at a PoC playing Macbeth or Marc Antony, who are both obviously historical figures. We know Shakespeare's history isn't real history. We know Gypsy is a "musical fable."

But it's worth pointing out the double standard that would arise should a white person be cast in a role whose historical original was a PoC, and I don't think the whole "there haven't been the same opportunities available" argument is a really logical one--especially these days when pretty much every show on Broadway engages in color conscious casting. Maybe it made sense in the 1990's. There are LOTS of opportunities for people of all races on Broadway today, and easily far more on television and the movies than have ever been the case. 

Again, though, I don't think a dispassionate approach to this conversation is possible for most people. I'll probably get attacked for this post (or ignored). Your original comment was itself quite passionate--and intensely negative. I wish you'd avoided the name-calling and just made your point. I wish we could have an exchange of ideas without mudslinging. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 12:04am

Yes- I was just trying to make a point- and the point was- authenticity counts for something, too. I am all for casting based on talent- not race. That said, there is something to be said for authenticity- and, to me, a black Florenz Ziegfeld or a Jewish member of the Temptations simply does not seem appropriate. Casting vaudeville striptease- portraying the life of Gypsy- with an All-Black cast simply, to me, feels disingenuous- unnecessary and a bit stunt-y. Hamilton was fabulous and groundbreaking- but not every show has to go that route. 

And I know my first post was negative- but I was offended at the ease with which appropriation of white and/or Jewish historical figures by POC is considered just fine- while- if any black figure was portrayed by anyone not black- or not dark enough black- etc.- there is outrage and endless offense taken- vis a vis Nina Simone portrayed by Zoe Saldana, to name one example.

Updated On: 12/21/22 at 12:04 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 2:28am

BWAY Baby2 said: "Yes- I was just trying to make a point- and the point was- authenticity counts for something, too. I am all for casting based on talent- not race. That said, there is something to be said for authenticity- and, to me, a black Florenz Ziegfeld or a Jewish member of the Temptations simply does not seem appropriate. Casting vaudeville striptease- portraying the life of Gypsy- with an All-Black cast simply, to me, feels disingenuous- unnecessary and a bit stunt-y. Hamilton was fabulous and groundbreaking- but not every show has to go that route.

And I know my first post was negative- but I was offended at the ease with which appropriation of white and/or Jewish historical figures by POC is considered just fine- while- if any black figure was portrayed by anyone not black- or not dark enough black- etc.- there is outrage and endless offense taken- vis a vis Nina Simone portrayed by Zoe Saldana, to name one example."

I agree that authenticity has to count for something, but since it does, I have to take issue with your claim (and not just yours) that Gypsy and her family were Jewish. I'd never thought about what religion the family was, so I googled after reading your post, and came up with this. If it's wrong, I'm willing to be corrected:

"Some websites say Rose Thompson was Jewish. She wasn't. Neither was Gypsy Rose Lee's father, Jack Hovick, who was born in Norway. Whether Rose considered herself a member of any church later on, I don't know, but she was raised Catholic, and for several years one of her best friends was a priest." https://major-smolinski.com/NAMES/GYPSYTWO.html
 

I do agree that representation of one ethnic group should not lead to the marginalization/erasure of any other ethnic group, and I agree about the equal ludicrousness of a Black Florenz Ziegfeld or a Jewish Temptation--but then neither has actually happened, to my knowledge. I doubt there will ever be an all-Black Broadway revival of Fiddler on the Roof or Funny Girl anymore than I think there will be an All Jewish (or Asian or White) Broadway revival of The Color Purple or The Wiz. 

Updated On: 12/21/22 at 02:28 AM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 7:51am

Peter Francis James is an African-American actor and voice-over artist, distinguished by his strong baritone. He was born September 16 , 1956 , in Chicago , ...

Peter Francis James is playing Ziegfeld in the current Funny Girl- and a black man played one of the Jews in The Lehman Trilogy. I never thought any of the real characters in Gypsy were Jewish. 

Let's drop it here. I was trying to make a point. I think diverse casting is fine- to a point- but not always. Usually- YES- not always.

[BJR]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 9:39am

Who the hell knows who June Havoc and Gypsy Rose Lee are anyway? Us, sure. But not most people. Silly reason.

Half the reason The Strip is so difficult to pull of is folks aren't familiar with her act anymore and havent been for decades.

[BuddyStarr]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 9:47am

So...Is anyone going to see the Encores production of "Light in the Piazza"?

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 12/21/22 at 1:49pm

Only if it is an all-black production.