West Side Story Question — Page 2

That was very interesting wickedrent, thank you for posting that. I had never even though of that connection between Something's Coming and Maria other than the lyrics. I hadn't even noticed the tritones used in every song... Where is it in "Cool"?


I always wonder if these kind of analytical nuances are intentional or not.

Hehe, Bernstein attributed Cool, along with the Prologue, to where he started realizing he was using the tritone.

Anyway, Cool is all tritones, think of the instrumental opening...everything up until the vocal starts. It's umm...I'm in clarinet world, so that's a different key, but a-flats and d's, b's and f's, and then b's and f's next to a-flat's and d's. And the instrumental underscore during the vocal in the bari sax, which is hard to hear, is also all tritones. And yeah, all over the song.

I think when you're dealing with the "geniuses," a lot of the analytical nuances are intentional...or...they don't realize what they're doing at first, but...I think Bernstein knew the connections between the lowered 7ths and use of hemiolas and tone clusters, the relations of keys of C's and A's...the fact that all of Tony and Maria's songs are in sharp keys (except Maria, but Larry Kert once said that Bernstein lowered the song half a step because he couldn't reach the highest note), and the jet/shark/gang songs are in flats, that has to be somewhat conscious. But here's what Bernstein's said about the tritones, indicating if it wasn't intentional, then it wasn't conscious:

"The three notes pervade the whole piece, inverted, done backwards. I didn't do this all on purpose. It seemed to come out in 'Cool' and as the gang whistle in 'Prologue.' The same three notes."

But the tritone is just taken to another level, in terms of ending the piece. The final notes, the somewhere melody, which was taken off the Maria melody (i-a), is played again, but the bass response played at the same time is an F-sharp, while the final, repeated notes of the Some-where are C's. C and F-sharp are tritones. Combining the lowered 7th, the melody that starts in Something's Coming, goes to Maria, Balcony Scene, then Somewhere, is combined with the tritone. How amazingly poetic, huh?

---

Hmm, I Feel Pretty's a tough one. Granted, I only have bits of pieces of the vocal score, not the entire, and just my instrument part, so I'm going on a bit of a stretch here but the accompanying woodwind parts to the main melody, at least in the intermission part of the music kind of have a tritone relation...they end on a G-sharp twice in a row, and then end on a D, its tritone relative.

Same thing with the woodwind accompanyment during the "have you met my good friend Maria" part, during the "she's the one who is in...,' the accompanying run begins on a C and ends on a very accented F-sharp, tritones.

Yeah, it's a stretch I know. But many of the books I've read cited I Feel Pretty as the worst song in the show...not to say it's bad at all, they said it would probably be the best in many, many other scores, and that just says miles about how wonderful the score is.

But good job,I'm pretty sure you picked the hardest song or me to find them in

---

WSS is one of the most brilliant pieces of American musical theatre. Hands down.

A Boy Like That can be so powerful- I remember being in tears every night I watched that song. However, I can imagine that out of context (if you don't know the story) it doesn't hit as hard. But as is the same with any song really...BUT I would never call Bernstein LAZY for it. Just because the song requires acting and doesn't rely on notes alone doesn't make it bad.

I agree with an above comment- if you're serious about theatre, be wary if it's not the original version. Unless it's at a good theatre, doing someone else's version besides Jerome Robbins could screw YOUR perception of WSS, and trust me, you need to know just how amazing this show truly is.

I could go on for days.....

Wow, I couldn't disagree more re: A Boy Like That. It's brilliant, and I certainly don't think Bernstein was lazy in writing that.

Now, as I previously stated, WSS is characterized by 4 major musical techniques: tritones, lowered 7ths, hemiolas, and tone clusters. These are all introduced in the prologue, and with each "violent" song, they become more pronounced to sound uglier. This hits the peak in A Boy Like That. The song has large amounts of tone clusters and tritones. In fact, the tone clusters consisting of major/minor triads that have been subtly in the instruments throughout the show are finally featured in the vocal melody. The D-natural juxtaposed with the D-flat in both "broth-er" and "a noth-er" emphasize the difference between major and minor. The dissonant chords heard in the beginning of the Prologue (F naturals played against F sharps and E naturals) also come to fruition in the vocal melody: "ONE of your own KIND, STICK to your own KIND."

And in terms of A Boy Like That into I Have A Love, that's also brilliant. The songs are based on altering a melody. Maria's portion, I Have A Love is derived from Anita's earlier melody, A Boy Like That, except the melody is now in a major key. It is appropriate that the idea of death is in a minor key, while the idea of love is in a major key. The accompanyment also changes, to almost hymn-like chords from the vengeance they play in the beginning. That's a big reason you wouldn't realize it's the same melody. But just how genius--think of how quickly Maria gets Anita to change her mind, when Anita's that pissed. She does so by throwing Anita's argument back in her face--by using HER melody to prove her point, and that is why Anita so quickly changes her mind, and that's how the audience can buy that she does.

So I wouldn't exactly say nothing leads into the next section :-P

bbonstage, you could totally be my new best friend!

Hmm, that's a good point Dollypop. As such a loyal fan of the original...well cast recording, since I've never seen the original production, but with what I know about it, I myself don't find the movie to be as great as everyone else does, just because of how it takes away from the original version. But still, on its own, it's pretty brilliant.

But I think it's definitely that times have changed. Think of how they try to make musical movies these days--with an excuse for the characters to sing, like Chicago, or most of Dreamgirls, becauser audiences today have trouble buying pure musical--people randomly bursting into song, etc. Which really really sucks.

So when they see WSS, not even the singing, but when they're supposed to see these tough gangs fighting and they see them doing ballet dances to each other, they find that ridiculous. My sister felt the same way. She could buy it on stage, but not on the screen on the actual streets of New York.

I don't think just because perceptions have changed, that could take away from the brilliance of the film (which still took away some of the brilliance of the original production..)

---

>>"Yes! Rent the movie. It's brilliant."<<

I don't know if I agree anymore.

When the film was first released it was certainly brilliant and people were weeping in theaters. Now, when I show it in class in conjunction with ROMEO AND JULIET, the kids laugh at the dancing and the singing.

I don't know whether times have changed or I just have the most miserable group of kids in the world.

We're theatre fans, I think we'll be okay with the dancing and singing.

---

Speaking of WSS, I just got the OBC recording in the mail, and I realize why bernstein was upset. It is so much easier to listen to.

The only song I like better on the movie soundtrack though is "Jet Song" In the OBC, Riff sounds like an old man, and it's too slow.

I guess I can see where you're coming from Mark, especially considering I guess you're used to the soundtrack, so I can't understand coming from that angle. But I'll never enjoy the Jet Song from the movie, mainly because they took someone who could sing (Russ Tamblyn) and dubbed him for absolutely no reason what-so-ever. Some dude was on a dubbing spree. (BTW, another huge problem i have with the movie soundtrack--dubbing. I mean, if you're going to dub Tony, isn't it kind of pathetic that the dubber still doesn't sound anywhere near as amazing as the one on the OBC?)

Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "easier to listen to?" I'm thinking of a couple of things it could mean and I just want to clarify which one you meant.

" Nobody seems to have any interest in doing it as anything more than a copy of what came before, same choreography and everything. "

Well, you know what Edmund, I don't think we can really blame people for not having any interest in getting sued (as the Robbins' estate dictates on this piece that in any professional production, Robbins' choreography must be used.) I know that wasn't your point, just had to tease that yes, people aren't interested in breaking the "law"

*stones Edmund*

I...kind of get what you're saying, and I know changes to the material are being discussed and the very thought of that drives me mad, but still Edmund...put yourself in the place of a 21 year old who worships Bernstein and WSS and is yet to see a live professional production of it. Do you know what I would give, how much it would mean to me to see this back on Broadway?

And there are some aspects of it that I honestly believe will never be outdated--the attempted "rape" of Anita and the general reason that the message never got delivered to Tony, or messed up. I still think that's shocking.

But I don't think the creators intended for the gangs to be that scary or that threatening. Many of the members were written comically, and we're allowed to see into the "souls" of the members and understand why they are in this gang, so they're never presented as people we should be "threatened" by.

And I think the sentiment behind Gee Officer Krupke has never been more appropriate than in today's society.

---

I saw the North Carolina School of the Arts production when it came through Chicago a few weeks ago, and it was absolutely stunning. It was the first production I'd seen where all the kids actually looked like kids. It was the best production of the show I've ever seen.

---

I too saw that production and had endless problems with it.

Of course they looked like kids, they are kids.

It had the worst pacing of any musical I've ever seen to have such creative minds participating. Nothing made sense, or was hardly effective with such a slow pace. Not many artists truly committed either, there was so much BS... I'm sorry, I don't mean to bash it, as it was a school production, but I felt there was either a huge problem in the director's chair or the actors just weren't willing to go there.

Anybody's, however, played by Tammy Carasco, was outstanding.

Re the North Carolina production, I thought the Anita was weak and I was rather indifferent to Anybodys, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it. I wish the tempos were a little faster, but they seem to be in line with the OBCR (whose tempo I always found slow to begin with), but I thought it was a highly enjoyable. I was actually at the open dress, which seemed to go off without a hitch. Maybe there were problems with the actual performance.

---

Lots to respond to:

Eric, I too have..."seen" the recreation of the original staging in a mid 90s tour that starred Marcy Harriel as Maria (she was quite good), (hope you know what I mean by "seen"...it's a rare find, but so worth it!) Unfortunately, I don't remember it that clearly...I remember thinking that the dancing/action could have been improved during the "Schirzo," I was surprised that they just ran, trying to find "somewhere." I mean, I guess it makes sense, but the difference between...me playing it (never actually in a production, both cut it), and how it was staged was just very different. Still, I think the ballet and "Somewhere" into the nightmare is still brilliant...even though Carol Lawrence nearly broke her neck during rehearsal, I love the fact that Tony and Maria are carried off and that's how they can't be together--perfectly acting out the situation, that their "friends," situations are forcing them apart. A great abstract.

Re: first time leads got to dance, that's just something Carol Lawrence had said in an interview, I don't think I've seen any other confirmation. Still, I think it is what you were saying, it was probably the first time two LEADS were allowed to dance the dream ballet.

I agree that the movie does do well in placing the boys in "America"--in our high school's production, we too added the boys in. I don't think it's too much dancing, the Jets dance "Cool" and the Sharks don't have to, and that's one of the hardest dances in the show, certainly the Sharks could handle "America."

In terms of the switching of Cool and Krupke, I'm not entirely sure about my feelings. I know...for the MOVIE, it definitely worked, and had to be that way. I guess I generally agree it might be better that way in the show, but I did read a surprising argument for the original placing. It was very convincing...but maybe not that much if I can't remember it...but I remember thinking the person had a point, I swear!

Eric, very very very unfortunately, I will be terribly surprised if anything is done to commemorate WSS' 50th Anniversary. The same debate we're having here about reviving or revising it has caused such disagreement that everyone won't come together to do it one way or another. A shame.

bbonstage, maybe it's like...we (I hope you too) see that the original production is much better than the movie...but those who see the movie without seeing the original production think it's great. Maybe that's why kringas loved the production, and you didn't. Maybe us WSS fanatics are so...we know what it could be, and if it's not up to par, we'll find it worse than people who aren't familiar with the original...does that make sense? I certainly agree that WSS can be heavily ****ed up if people take it on who do not have the talent to perform it, but maybe so-so productions aren't as bad as we would think they are.

"But still, if after fifty years, we're still doing the same dances, it makes me a little sad."

And I still shoot back with, it makes me a lot sad that I am yet to see a live, professional production of this masterpiece, the way it was done. :-P And again, in terms of doing the same dances...lawsuits. And really...is there any other show that dance is so imperative to the storytelling? Could you really conceive of just how bad a revisal could be? How amazing it would have to be to even live up to the original, let alone surpass it? It's just that perfect, IMO.

"And there's so much meaning in the show that gets lost now."

Wait, I want to clarify...are you saying what you did that what held meaning then doesn't know, or that productions today don't convey that meaning? Big difference. I'd of course argue with the former, but am not in a position to argue with the latter.

"If the anger at authority the kids had been blowing off came out of them with "Gee, Officer Krupke, F*CK YOU!"

And if the gangs were fighting, they wouldn't be doing ballet turns on the street. It's all part of the suspension of belief, of the particular musical language, IMO. Krupke is a complete vaudeville number. And the silly pun works in terms of ending the vaudeville number. I think changing little things like that pulls the audience out of the suspension of belief, and suddenly just everything like that has to be changed, and I've heard of productions that have tried to do that, that have just been awful!

"because every production is just like every other. Oh well"

And I still stay I'll take that any day over a much lesser, different production. Maybe I regard West Side too highly, but I honestly cannot conceive of a revisal that would be better than the original, or even as good. I can't.

---

bbonstage, maybe it's like...we (I hope you too) see that the original production is much better than the movie...but those who see the movie without seeing the original production think it's great. Maybe that's why kringas loved the production, and you didn't

I'm confused here. Are you talking about the actual original production? Like the one in 1957? Did bbonstage see that? I only ask because I don't understand how my enjoyment of the production become conflated with seeing the movie.

---