West Side Story Question — Page 3

"the Robbins' estate dictates on this piece that in any professional production, Robbins' choreography must be used."
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Huh. Somehow I missed that in you first response. That's a little odd. Okay well, still.

Thanks for clarifying!

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Thanks for sharing the quotes. Interesting...

But then I started thinking, let's say Krup You was changed to F*CK You. If the whole point is that this is a dramatic moment that they're lashing out, the notes aren't appropriate--the music ends in the complete vaudeville style. And what is to follow is me going through saying this note should be changed, and this note should be changed, and then I, the Bernstein worshipper, would say it's changing too much of the score. But maybe someone else without a complete idolization could justify it. Maybe end it on a tritone or something...if it follows the pattern of Bernstein's musical drama.

But I still maintain that you really can't change too much of the show without having to change most of the entire show, and I couldn't stand for that to happen.

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I'm enjoying the discussion too. I think someone needs to buck the Robbins estate, then. It's artistically indefensible that they're FORCING them to use the same choreography. The Robbins estate is literally forcing theater to stop being creative with one of its greatest works. It needs to live again.

I'm sorry, but to me the choreography IS the story. The problem is maybe with the execution of it of the performers/choreographers maybe not getting the meaning behind each and every move, however, I really do wish to see a first-class revival of WSS with Robbins' choreography and staging with people who do GET it. IMO, the choreography of West Side Story is as much canon as the text of the book and the lyrics and music are.

How many times have we seen Fosse shows being revised rather than revived and them falling short to the point where we wish we have seen Fosse's original staging/choreography?

I understand that people want to take a masterpiece and give it a new spin in a way that has never been done before, and I understand that they want to do that because people feel that the original staging now fails to deliver the impact it once had. However, if the choreography and music is as essential to the storytelling as it is to West Side Story, then you maybe really **** up one of the greatest pieces of theater ever.

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I don't have the time to respond to everything I would want to (will do that later), but amen to what everyone has said. I started considering the whole if Robbins' choreography is changed, then how different, in the case of WSS, is it really from changing the music? And as I already said, I will have a FIT if anyone tries to alter Bernstein's brilliant music.

And thanks for the link to the Sondheim forum, will check it out later.

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Riff is a great role! congrats!
here's a hint. you die. you're the equivalent of Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet i believe. [don't throw stones if i messed that up]
You've got a few songs, the opening jet song [fun!] and, depending on how this will be directed, either Officer Krupkee or Cool.

definitely do the show, not only will it look great in your resume, it is a wonderful show, and my personal favorite! =)

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Edmund I appreciate your reply but don't agree--and dont' really get it--why dance is held to a diff standard for you (BTW if youd is like ballet because they're all dancing steps done years ago you migth wanna reconsider--very few productions of classic ballets use anythign close to the old choreography--nearly every company loves ot have them re-choreographed with each staging, for good or bad--and the music mixed up--New York City Ballet's new Romeo and Juliette by peter Martins being a classic example etc)


I guess I see the dancing for WSS as a part of the story and piece--hrmm. I'm not sure :P

Mark the mixing may be a bit better but I hate all the small lyric censorship changes for the movie (though the original cast album did change schmo to shmuck for the recording for censorship)

Thank you so much for the link to those WSS posts on the Sondheim board, Eric! I swear I didn't read what you wrote about why krup you needs to be preserved, didn't steal your answers, just a nice coincedence

But I love this post that someone made, I think it's very profoundly put:

"Similarly with WSS it is the fact that the kids use their own language that draws us into their world, and makes us more complicit in their actions."

Another thought I had was that...think of the majority of productions of shows in America...high schools, community theaters...I guess colleges don't have to be censored, but if the actual line was **** you, at least half, if not more than half of the productions done of WSS would be forced to censor it out. And in the way we hope that theater reaches young kids, it seems outdated, but I can imagine parents getting upset that the bad word is in the show, used precisely in the way they don't want it used, "**** you" and would be upset that there children were exposed to that, even in a professional production.

Someone also mentioned the fact that for the Jets to have come up with "Krup you' is something they would take pride in, being that clever. For the purpose of that song/scene, I definitely agree.

Edmund...I mean yes it's opinions, but...okay it's like, I might disagree with someone but I can understand their argument behind why they feel that way...I still honestly can't understand your argument how in WSS changing the choreography wouldn't be different from changing the score/script. Everyone has said the choreography is so much a part of telling the story as either, and if you want to preserve the story, which I assume is why you don't wanna touch the script, and no one better mess with Bernstein's perfect, brilliant score, I can't accept that it's okay to change the choreography..just in the case of this show at least.

For the record Eric, I do agree with you that this applies to other shows such as A Chorus Line.

I also don't buy that Maria should die because it ties it with Romeo and Juliet? I mean, here's a perfect example: many critics believe that WSS has improved the true tragedy of the story because of a major change: the fact that the message doesn't get unreceived/mixed-up because of a coincedence, which Shakespeare critics feel is a copout that doesn't lend it to true tragedy, the message in WSS gets mixed up because of hatred, prejudice, enabling it to be a true tragedy. That element certainly shouldn't be changed to be more tied in with R&J, so why should Maria dying be?

It's ultimately a stronger decision from Maria to not choose death. It is a copout, both for the writers, and for her. Certainly, her life is not going to be easy from here, but she won't take the easy way out. She chooses to live to see if she can create the place for Tony and her, even though Tony is not there to share it with her, on this plane anyway. It's inspiring, and very strong of her character, and I think it strengthens the show.

Mark, do you mean balance by mixing? Like hearing the parts equally? I'll be honest, I never listened to the soundtrack...just saw the movie, and found no purpose to, all i'd wanna do is listen to the OBC. The only particularly not great mixing I can think of in terms of the OBC is the offstage singer for Somewhere, she sounds very faint...but maybe that's intentional, since she represents a not-real place or vision or something.

And I'll say again (and totally agree with vietgirl), I don't think saying something should be reconceived is an excuse for something to be less than the original. And I honestly cannot imagine any reconception of WSS that wouldn't be less than the original.

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The Maria dying this is just my personal preference for how I like to adapt things. As an amateur writer, I like the ends of my adaptations to be as close to the original as possible. Just my thing. The ending of WSS works great, and I wouldn't dream to change it. I might have her pick up the gun after Tony gets carried off, and have the lights fade on her looking at it.

I think we've reached the perfect agree to disagree point. We understand and respect each other's points. To clarify my one point you had trouble with: The script and score are the story. That's what there is. You can read it and listen to the music and it's all there. The sets, costumes, orchestrations, direction, acting, and choreography are all part of the presentation of that story, and are changeable. No matter what the show is, or how that presentation was arrived at.

Pleasure talking with you guys. I suppose we can end it here.

I've just begun rehearsals for a production of West Side Story, and though I have nothing valuable to add to this thread, I have to tell you all how wonderful it is to read such educated and well-expressed insight on the show. Keep it up, I know I'm not the only one who's getting a kick out of reading all this!

So i don't know anything that's happened in this thread because i didn;t bother to read any other posts than the first, but...
I think riff is a great part...even though he dies at the end of the first act. But you have 2 great songs (i think). Gee officer krumpke, however, is not one of Riff's songs in the show (it is in ithe movie).

Congrats!

HAHAHA. Me run out of WSS things to discuss, that's one of the funniest things I ever heard.

Let's see...I'll save its operatic influences for another post...

Well, I can go through a couple of songs detailing more of musical brilliance...so if I'll do that in later posts, I guess I'll start with...explaining in general the major elements Bernstein uses throughout the score, so once that's established, I can show how they're used in each song.

I'm taking stuff I wrote for my paper, which was for a teacher with more musical knowledge than most, so...I'll see if I can think of anything I should add to explain, but if anyone has any questions about what I'm talking about (in general, people, including myself, tend to not know what I'm talking about...) so yeah. Okay.

So I explained a bit about the tritone already. The tritone, for those who don't know, are 2 notes that are 2 full steps away: B and F, C and F-sharp, etc. They can either be played at the same time on different instruments, or juxtaposed next to another. The tritone is usually associated with dissonance, and, as I said, was known as the devil in music in the middle ages. It was generally avoided altogether, and was known as the most dissonant interval in Western music, until Bernstein (semi-consciously?) made it the central element of West Side Story. As I previously said as examples, the first notes heard in Cool are tritones, as is the very first thing you hear on the OBC recording: 3 notes, the 2nd one is held long, then cadences up to another note, and quickly cuts off. Those 2 notes, the 2nd and 3rd one, is a tritone...C to an F-sharp (in clarinet terms). Bernstein immediately prepares the listener's ear for the tritone, so a dissonant interval can be seen as harmonic to the listener.

The second important element of the score is the chromatically lowered seventh step. Let's see, how to explain this...think of a scale you play, C for instance. The seventh note of the scale is B. So a lowered seventh would be B-flat. So if a song is in the key of C and there's a lot of accidentals for B-flat, that's using a lowered seventh. Something's Coming (IN THE OBC, NOT THE MOVIE, ULGH!) actually ends on a lowered seventh that is held out. It purposely ends that way, dissonant, never resolving itself...waiting, like the song's lyric.

Oh god, then there's tone clusters made up of major and minor triads. God, it took ME a long time to understand what this means. I guess...it's...different instruments hold out, or play different notes...the notes are in the same rhythms, but clash, because some are in a minor key and some are in a major key. Many of the chords harmonizing the Jet Song are composed in this way. The use of these clusters has two important effects. First, the clusters sound similar to jazz, an American form of music, and kind of stamp the music with an American feel. Second, the clusters help unify the score, kind of like the tritone. It accustoms the ear to all these chromatic progressions and modulations, so the ear accepts it as not necessarily dissonant.

The triads also lead to a sort of polytonality to the songs (it seems like the song could be in more than one key; it's ambiguous). Like, in the Prologue...the first bass note suggests the key is C, but the second and last bass notes suggest the key is A. In measure 8, all of the instruments play a unison C, letting the listener know that C is indeed the key, but it still seems ambiguous throughout most of the song. At one point, the A also cadences into an F-sharp, and C, A, and F-sharp are very important pitches in WSS. WSS is the first American musical play to be centered around a central pitch.

The last major element are hemiolas. This rhythm juxtaposes a division of a beat/meter into three parts against a division of two parts. This most obviously occurs in America, think of the chorus: I like to/ be in A/ mer/i/ca. The i like to be is divided into 2 parts as I showed, but the mer-i-ca is divded into 3 parts. Does that make sense? Like the tritone, this also happens when one instrument can be playing in duple meter, and one in triple meter, at the same time. At one point in The Jet Song, the singers sing in triple meter, while the bass plays in duple meter. This occurs in reverse in Something's Coming--Tony sings in duple, bass plays in triple. This syncopation lends the song to its breathless anticipation.

So those are your elements. Once you understand those, I can go through the songs, showing how well they're used.

Nothing else to discuss Eric...you crack me up.

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