What exactly is the point of Another Suitcase Another Hall- Page 3

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:03am

I always figured that she was trying to manipulate the public.

[Wynbish]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:09am

Probably a little of both. When she had received fame on the radio, she met Peron and found a new outlet for recognition and power (and love, but whatever). Her fame in the entertainment business wasn't the be-all-end-all solutions she may have thought them to be. She could have had more and gone higher, and she did.

I do think the "I never invited them in" is a bit of a manipulation, especially after she sang "All I want is a whole lot of excess. Tell the singer this is where I'm playing." I don't think she moved to Buenos Aires to join a typing pool and go to clubs at night.

Updated On: 6/11/13 at 11:09 AM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:11am

The song is supposed to be a political speech, so naturally there are some parts that are meant to manipulate people. I think that in the original, it's not meant to be THAT sincere, but in the Spanish version people do take it literally and the song is more sentimental.

http://youtu.be/y4J7U2zg94U

[Wynbish]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:13am

Even in political power, people referred to her as "The Actress". Saying that was a chance to say that being "The Actress" just happened by chance and doesn't define her. While it doesn't totally define her, it does partially.

[all that jazz]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:17am

I've heard people saying it should be the national anthem of Argentina.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:23am

Very good point. It probably is a bit of both. Maybe even EVA Isn't sure if she is completely genuine but at the same time she doesn't want to get off the roller coaster cause its to much fun.

She also takes a complete Bi polar turn after her speech is over :

Eva:Just listen to that the voice of Argentina we are adored we are loved.

Some guy: Statesmanship is more than entertaining peasants.

Eva: We shall see little man..

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:24am

>> "She didn't want to find fame and success because she was tired of bed-hopping. She wanted to, because it was in her the whole time."

Okay Question Wynbish: etc.

I think it's important to consider the options women in Argentina, during that time period, actually had for asserting themselves as "powerful women". Although it seems really unthinkable today, in our society, "bed-hopping" to gain control over men does not carry the same "I would never do that!," stigma.

In those times and under those circumstances, it was a viable option. That does not mean that the women who did it felt good about it.

Updated On: 6/11/13 at 11:24 AM

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:28am

>> I always figured that she was trying to manipulate the public.

If she were a man, whose motives for that speech were based on previous behaviors and scrutinized in the same way, would you feel differently?

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:31am

>> The song is supposed to be a political speech, so naturally there are some parts that are meant to manipulate people.

That song, more than any other elements of Evita is completely fictitious. The first Evita (Peron married a second after she died) never gave any speech that remotely resembled DCFMA, so I think it's interesting to explore why Webber and Rice chose to invent it for this moment in the show.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:38am

>> I've heard people saying it should be the national anthem of Argentina.

If you were an Argentino, you (they) might feel differently. Updated On: 6/11/13 at 11:38 AM

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:39am

I think Eva (in the show) Did truly care about the people. Her heart was with the descamisados because she WAS a desci. She had no sympathy for the upper and middle class but when she sings DCFMA I try to believe that Most of the words she is saying are to the descis and those words are genuine.

I think she lets her true principles known she she sings:

The actress hasn't learned the lines you'd like to hear
She won't join your clubs, she won't dance in your halls
She won't help the hungry once a month at your tombolas
She'll simply take control as you disappear
--

To me she is saying that she won't conform to the snobby upper rich class. She won't just help the poor people once a week, she will strive to make things better for the descimesadoes.

[all that jazz]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:48am

Well, like guy and gdelgi already pointed out ALW was inspired to write the song after watching Judy Garland struggle through a performance of Over the rainbow. He wanted to give her an anthem and then take it away from her. And if there's one thing DCFMA is, it's anthemic.

Maybe they just wanted to write a hit song, but the part about it being a political speech was strongly enforced by Hal Prince.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:56am

>> She had no sympathy for the upper and middle class but when she sings DCFMA I try to believe that Most of the words she is saying are to the descis and those words are genuine.

To my mind, Evita is Webber and Rice's best work. It's the most well-constructed, and even though it's fictional, captures a LOT of the sentiment that real-life Argentinos felt about Evita (both the good and the bad, as well as which class of people felt what). I don't know if they deliberately set out to do that, but from my perspective, it really works well.

I still think that it's really important to acknowledge that DCFMA is an aria completely invented to express what Webber and Rice wanted to say about the character. If you took away that, "I think Eva (in the show) Did truly care about the people.", then only Webber and Rice could acknowledge if you're right or wrong.

But being in the same boat as you (with only a little more personal background in Argentina), I would agree with you. Updated On: 6/11/13 at 11:56 AM

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:00pm

>> And if there's one thing DCFMA is, it's anthemic.

What does that word mean? Updated On: 6/11/13 at 12:00 PM

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:05pm

Well Said John Adams. To me EVITA is Webber's best musical he has ever done. It might not be the most successful show but the score is honestly a living masterpiece when sung right.

I think the most inspiring thing Webber and Tim have done with this show is making the lead character completely ambiguous and up to interpretation and yet somehow at the end of the show you still feel for Eva. Tim and Webber took a highly unlikeable character and made you feel for her. She does awful things in the show and yet the heart of the show IS Her. Its not fair to call Eva a bitch but at the same time its not fair to call her sincere either. I always joke to my friends " She is like the Anti Disney princess on Crack" lol

[Gothampc]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:10pm

Ken Russell was the first director attached. His first choice to play Eva was Barbra Streisand, who turned him down. His second choice was Liza Minnelli, who he screen-tested, but her casting was vetoed by lyricist Tim Rice, who wanted Elaine Paige, who had originated the stage role in London.

Barbara saw what Ken Russell did with Tommy and didn't want to be sprayed with chocolate. Plus I wonder if Barbra didn't want to follow up with another musical so close to Yentl.

And I really question that Tim Rice vetoed Liza. Elaine Paige was not known to American audiences. The musical needed a name attached as Evita.

In the mid-80s, I remember the talk was Barbra, Liza, Meryl, and Cher. Then a couple of oddball choices were thrown out such as Bernadette Peters. Of course someone mentioned Annie Lennox. And there were a group of people that were saying it should be a Latina actress/singer.

Updated On: 6/11/13 at 12:10 PM

[all that jazz]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:14pm

John,

"Describes music that has qualities that are suitable for an anthem, such as a strong tune and seriousness"

"Like an anthem in being rousing or uplifting"

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:14pm

>> making the lead character completely ambiguous and up to interpretation and yet somehow at the end of the show you still feel for Eva.

I can't agree with you that the character of Eva is "completely ambiguous", but getting back to the topic, I think the inclusion of Another Suitcase... helps to establish your perception that, "somehow at the end of the show you still feel for Eva".

I still contend that Another Suitcase... shows a more jaded version of Eva speaking to her (figuratively) younger, less affected self. IMO, that carries through when hearing/viewing those exact same words re-sung in Dice Are Rolling.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:18pm

>> John,

"Describes music that has qualities that are suitable for an anthem, such as a strong tune and seriousness"

"Like an anthem in being rousing or uplifting"

OK, I think I git'cha on the meaning, bit I'd still contend that Argentinos might disagree. (Even more to your point, I should have just googled!)

[all that jazz]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:23pm

Oh I don't think it should be their anthem, mainly because I wouldn't like someone from another country telling me how my anthem should be like, I'm just saying that the song is powerful enough to be one.

Updated On: 6/11/13 at 12:23 PM

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:25pm

Okay maybe not completely ambiguous. I was saying I liked how they took a very controversial figure and made the audience feel for her without having the audience be manipulated by over sentimental stuff. The character is never one sided and yet you almost want her to not die and keep on going. I do think "Another suitcase another hall" helps with getting that message a crossed.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:27pm

>> Maybe they just wanted to write a hit song, but the part about it being a political speech was strongly enforced by Hal Prince.

Absolutely true, but the "politics" are those from Webber and Rice's imagination. Not disagreeing or confirming - just something that needs to be considered.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:31pm

From a music-programming standpoint the songs is a moment to savour and to give the ears a rest. Consider that up until this point in the show there has been a lot of screaming, and some busy staging. This moment affords a pause to prevent the show from becoming to relentless. (As an experiment try programming your player to skip this track and you'll hear what I mean.)

I made the same point recently about "Little Lamb's placement midway through Act One of GYPSY.

Story-wise, while true the Mistress is a minor character and nothing more is ever heard of her, Eva's callous treatment (literally throwing the girl out of Peron's apartment in little more than a slip) sets up the moment. Also the girl is usually portrayed as very young. Prince added a subtle touch in his original staging of "And the Money Kept Rolling in" with a brief image of Peron seated with two very young girls sitting on his lap and a rather lecherous look in his eye. Peron reportedly liked them young!)

I had never heard the story of Lloyd Webber wanting to rescue the song from another project but it is likely...even the lyrics is fairly generic and not specific to anything in EVITA.

As for the movie casting there was much speculation even while the show was still playing Broadway and the west end. One satiric piece even touted Miss Piggy for the role (Claiming she to was vetoed because she demanded a lyric change: "I'm their savior/That's How they dig Me/So Petunia Pig me!" )

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:36pm

>> Oh I don't think it should be their anthem, mainly because I wouldn't like someone from another country telling me how my anthem should be like, I'm just saying that the song is powerful enough to be one.

I "feel" 'ya! I feel that way about Anthem from Chess.

I don't know how good your Castellano is, but if you ever get the chance to hear Argentina's real national anthem - come prepared with a book, or another way to pass the time... I love 'em, but that anthem does not acknowledge the concept of "short and to the point".

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 6/11/13 at 12:37pm

@GothamPC:

It is well-known Ken Russell walked away from the film because he didn't like the star that Robert Stigwood insisted on using. The question is who the star was.

Here's the whole gory story, as told in the Russell career retrospective Phallic Frenzy:

1982: Paramount Pictures purchases the rights. Robert Stigwood, set to produce, chooses Ken Russell to direct. Russell spends three months working on the script, looking for European locations, and scheduling screen tests. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice are adamant about casting Elaine Paige (helps the latter happens to be warming her bedsheets at the time, I'd say). Ken seems to be the lone dissenter: "Although there is no doubt that across the footlights her performance brought tears to the eyes, the eye of the camera proved to be made of sterner stuff." He auditions an endless cavalcade of blond-wigged and gold-laméd "Evita clones, each doing an interpretation of 'Another Suitcase in Another Hall,'" with Webber and Rice forcing yet another screen test on Paige again and again, and Russell still holding strong. About the only casting decision he is sure of is David Essex as Che Guevara, thinking he would be "charming."

Russell desires a female lead with balls. For whatever reason, that reminds him of Barbra Streisand. He attempted to work with her once before in the Seventies on a picture about Sarah Bernhardt that never got made, so he has an "in." She treats him to a chilly dinner, and is munificent enough to fulfill his request for some wine by ordering half a bottle and downing most of it herself. She tries picking his brain on everything from camera lighting to crane shots to zooms. Finally, he realizes that "a Jewish princess playing a Catholic whore" is a nonstarter, and moves on to greener pastures.

Liza Minnelli is next on the block. Rice and Stigwood aren't sure; Webber is starstruck and thusly more open-minded. For her audition, she throws on a blond wig, and skips the gold lamé, and Rusell apparently gets the performance of her career. Quote: "So Liza sang in her jeans and T-shirt, and when she didn't know the words she improvised, soaring above obstacles that would have floored most aspirants to produce a performance so charismatic, so charged, so inspired, that she totally transcended the sentimentality and superficial glamor of the stagy, two dimensional character and turned her into a vibrant woman of flesh and blood who had clawed her way out of the slums and slept her way to the top to possess the very soul of a nation... And when she reached her climax with an orgasmic 'I'm coming,' so was everyone else in the place: man, woman, dog."

So Stigwood summons Russell to his estate to get his opinion. Quick 70 mph ride by speedboat clashing with gushing winds, during which he falls flat on his face and takes this to be an omen. Hits land, checks into a guest bungalow, is taken where to Stigwood is sat watching multiple news reports at once. Stiggie then takes the trouble to show Ken all the holes on his estate where the spider crabs hang out and mate (can you spell 'stalling'?). Finally, Ken gets him to sit down and watch the tape of Liza's audition.

Stigwood isn't ready to commit to a decision; he'll send Ken a message as soon as he's home. Ken leaves L.A., and as he's arriving at Heathrow in London, he's handed a message: "I opened the folded paper bearing my name scribbled in pencil. The message consisted of two words: 'Elaine Paige.' I immediately phoned my agent, who brushed aside my protestations... I couldn't believe it. I'd been set up. I'd been humored. It was always going to be Elaine Paige. My dreams of coming up with an alternative Evita were just dreams."

So Ken nips into a bottle of Beaujolais and weighs his decision. On the one hand, swallow his pride, brave the insult, and try for a hit; on the other, be an idealist, keep his dignity, and quit. The idealist won. He told his agent he was off the picture. Sherry Lansing had him over to Paramount to try and sweet-talk him, thinking he wasn't serious about bowing out and laying on the royal treatment, down to a magnum of champagne. Ken tells her flat out, no Elaine, no Evita, and she promptly puts away the champagne: "'What are you doing?' I said, raising my voice at the sight of my lunchtime tipple being locked away. 'We've nothing to celebrate now, have we?' she said, icily."

The creatives were the polar opposite of gracious winners as well, if Tim Rice's comments to the New York Times are any indicator: "Russell was an insane choice, and would have wrecked the film if he had gotten his hands on it. I was relieved when he got the boot."

Updated On: 6/11/13 at 12:37 PM