TONY AWARD/BEST MUSICAL OF ALL TIME- Page 2

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:05pm

i know very well what the word "bigot" means.
here is the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition:

bigot- a person devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

you are bigoted against musicals with little or no choreography, apparently.

-d.b.j-

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:06pm

I just wanna say that "Death of a Salesman", while a good play, is not anywhere NEAR being the best play of all time, or even of the 20th century. Why the heck did Hugh say that??

Updated On: 9/1/04 at 05:06 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:11pm

it was the results of an online poll i believe...i could be wrong though...

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:12pm

There was a vote on the official Tony Awards website, like this thread is emulating (but with musicals).
-d.b.j-

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:26pm

The online poll was for the best Tony winning play (thus the list only went back to 1946) open to the public and hosted by Tonys.org. The poll first narrowed the list to finalists -- Salesman, Crucible, Streetcar, Longs Days, Virgina Woolf and Angels In America -- and from that list, Salesman got the most votes. Frankly, it's hard to argue with the results, IMO (though I think I remember voting for Angels).

[robbiej]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:30pm

nuggie,

quick question...do you think you're michael moore? stop editing to suit your purposes. the actual merriam-webster online definition for the word 'bigot' is:

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

and some other definitions of bigot? here ya go:

'One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.'

'A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite.'

'A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.'

seeing as i'm neither obstinate in my views nor intolerant of yours, i am not a bigot.

i am simply arguing that to choose the 'best' musical, one should pick a show that melds all of the elements of a musical (score, book and the movement of bodies through space in real time) seamlessly.

you say that dancing is not necessary to a musical. well...for some, sure...but not all. and that's an interesting argument to have.

however, your following remark stating that choreography is a 'typically showy one' is actually quite flippant (Merriam-Webster definition: lacking proper respect or seriousness). It precludes that choreography cannot be as integral to a musical as the book and score.

Updated On: 9/1/04 at 05:30 PM

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:35pm

margo, didn't the TONYs start in 1947?

and robbie, wow. good research. loved the michael moore quip. i am simply saying that dance is NOT a necessary part of a musical.
you think SO, I think NOT.
-d.b.j-

[leomaxfrank]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:38pm

i agree with robbie wholeheartedly.
the BEST musical of all-time has to implement all tools of musical theatre - choreography being a very important one. if someone doesn't consider choreography important at all, he/she is the bigot.

best musical of all-time IMHO:
West Side Story
- which implements ALL of the bases of musical theatre.
Amazing music, amazing lyrics, amazing choreo, amazing book, amazing themes...i can go on for days.

Runners-up:
Gypsy
Carousel

Updated On: 9/1/04 at 05:38 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:45pm

That's actually not true. And we can have a very good debate about it.

Sweeney Todd is a great musical. Falsettos...another great musical. Many people disagree, but I think Les Miserables is a great musical.

The point I'm trying to make is that in this particular instance, choosing the 'best' musical in a way implies the best representative. And since we're talking about the Tonys, we are also discussing the actual production, not just the writing, and I believe that is the way it should be. A musical is never complete until it is on a stage in a full production. If we are discussing actual productions, we must take into account all the elements...one very strong one is dance/movement. Now...I agree that Sweeney is brilliant...one of the best. But I don't think it's staging can compare to several others...especially the Robbins stuff. Because of that, I cannot give it my vote. If it were simply about book and score, I might go with you. But it's the whole we are discussing. Which is why I believe the way I do.

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:53pm

OOOh, I thought you were saying that musicals with no choreography are/were inferior to those with. Which is what you are saying, no?

And okay, I am kind of seeing what you mean...
But I still think that a "best" musical (which, that in itself, is impossible to measure) can have minimal or no choreography.
-d.b.j-

[robbiej]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 5:56pm

No...not what I'm saying. Just in this particular case, if I had to choose one, I would choose one which puts the same weight on choreography/movement as it does on the book/score. And you, of course, can disagree. I'm very tolerant!

[leomaxfrank]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:00pm

okay, robbie shoot me down.
here's what i'm saying - if it matters:
A best musical of a year for instance does not need to have amazing choreography to win, nor do I think it's a requirement. But when you are talking about the Best of all-time, staging and choreography go together quite importantly. I personally tend to like shows with less choreography but in selecting a best of all-time musical I believe it is eminent to choose one with carefully constructed musical staging - in addition to other factors.

[leomaxfrank]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:00pm

okay..you just said that too.
my bad!

[robbiej]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:02pm

I would never shoot down my leo.

Though I might edge out WSS for GYPSY. But it's a VERY difficult decision.

[leomaxfrank]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:03pm

i'm glad we see eye to eye on this darling. :)

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:04pm

Well, I agree with GYPSY. Definetly one of the top few.
-d.b.j-

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:29pm

My Fair Lady, maybe? I hate to say it but Sweeney would never win such an award, however deserving it may be.

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:35pm

The Ultimate musical is SWEENEY TODD.
The most entertaining musical is SWEENEY TODD.
The best written and composed musical is SWEENEY TODD.
The most enlightening musical is SWEENEY TODD.

But, because I belive choreography IS essential for a musical to be called the 'definitive musical' I would say GYPSY and WEST SIDE STORY are the definitive musicals.

But SWEENEY TODD is the best.

[NoDayButToday2]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 6:40pm

that is a really dificult question to answer

i dont think they should have that category-there are so many ways to judge what the 'best' musical is... they are so diverse its hard to even begin to compare them

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 7:20pm

Woah Priest! I wasn't saying it was undeserving (in fact, I said just the opposite), just that it would never win, especially if it was done with a poll like the best play contest.

I'm thinking that it may come down to "My Fair Lady", "Cabaret" and "Gypsy" (whether or not it won, it really SHOULD be on the list)- although yes, Sweeney is in most ways superior to all three. Updated On: 9/1/04 at 07:20 PM

[zepka102]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 7:35pm

i agree with what NDBT2 said, it's really tough for that category... but that can be said about any category... how can you pick the best actor or the best actress if everyone plays a different kind of role?



ok, plus there's a lot of shows i have NOT seen... so it's hard to decide from the handful that i saw

[PleaseChangeMe]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 8:10pm

I know that this is solely based on opinion, but still, anyone who puts Hairspray for the best musical of all time, is obviously VERY biased. Hairspray, compared to other real musicals, is crap. It's music is beyond bad, for one. It's catchy, so what? No substance, no nothing. The script is cliched and so is the moral. Even Rent is better then the crap they call Hairspray.

I want my money back.

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 8:26pm

Your username rings true here. Musicals can have substance without being pretentious or dark. "Hairspray" is joyous, and says a lot about quality of life, without pushing anything on the audience. I love the show's score, and anyone who can't get something from it, even if it is only a passing smile, should seek therapy. Updated On: 9/1/04 at 08:26 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 8:32pm

it all depends on how you consider "best", which is what the choreography boys were arguing.

Definitive like Gypsy or West Side? Quality of material like Sweeney Todd? Pure energy and joy like Hairspray? Cause lord knows i'd rather see a great Hairspray than an awful Sweeney Todd...
and THIS thread is based on the tony winners

so we have La cage instead of Sunday in the Park
Phantom instead of Into the Woods, Lion King instead of Ragtime, etc...so our options ARE limited

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 8:44pm

hold it hold it hold it!!!!
since when is this thread about the DEFINITIVE musical?
the title is "BEST MUSICAL OF ALL TIME"!!!
...sooooo...Sweeney!
-d.b.j-