Wicked- Why the Hatred?- Page 2

[SeeIreallycouldn'tSING!!]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:00pm

I think the Bashing is the same phenomenon coined by the hip-hop community: "Haters". The Haters hate. Jealousy? Envy? Low Self-Esteem? Because it's "cool" to hate something popular, succesful, "main-stream". If it's not off-off B'way, underground, avant-guard, "insider-clique", it's not worthy of their consideration. It's pathetic

-jo jo

I am the most mainstrem musical fan out there. I LOVE Chorus Line, Love the producers. And am a bit taken back my this quote. I personally can't stand the pretentous thoughts of the people above. But I can't stand wicked. I find it overrated, the music sucks, and the story is annoying, with its polictal undertones. Eww

[wickedfan2]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:24pm

Well I wasn't disappointed because I never knew anything about it or expected anything..maybe the wicked fans are mostly like me? And so what it wasn't a great script...2 actors were nominated for a tony and one did win...so whoever hands those awards out saw what I saw...Idina and Cheno alone was enough to see the play...that's how good they were..

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:25pm

JoJo - Are you telling us that there aren't any shows that you dislike? At all?

I can respect your *opinion* and you can respect other's *opinions*. The enjoyment of any show is purely subjective. Did it occur to you that Wicked isn't a cup of tea for everybody? To dislike a show hardly boils down to jealousy or hating something to be "cool". (Although I do wish ill on Idina because she sleeps with my man, Taye Diggs, but that's a whole other can of worms.)

[wickedfan2]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:32pm

haaaaa..love Kevin Hill...Taye is soooo HOT...

[wickedfan2]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:32pm

haaaaa..love Kevin Hill...Taye is soooo HOT...

[nodaybutTODAY3]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:35pm

"What's still tickles me is that those that dislike WICKED have gone out of their way to be specific in their critiques of the show, and yet the 'lovers' just boil it down to 'you're jealous' or 'you try writing a show'." -robbiej

Okay, I guess I'd consider myself a 'lover,' so here's me going "out of my way to be specific in [my] critique of the show." First of all, the leads are phenomenal. I'm talking Glinda and Elphaba. Meaning Idina, Kristin, AND Jennifer Laura Thompson. I loved Kristin and I wasn't expecting to like her replacement, but I did. A LOT. Idina and Kristin totally deserved Tony nominations and I am so happy Idina won because she is just amazing. The original supporting cast was great as well. Joey McIntyre and George Hearn are...eh. The ensemble is wonderful. Their facial expressions, dancing, and everything is just great.

Moving on from the actors though- the sets and costumes. I think they are just incredible. My favorite set is during Dancing Through Life, when the lights come on. The costumes are awesome, espcially during One Short Day when they are all in green.

The story, I will admit, has some holes and is not fully functional. However, I think that the music makes up for it- with 2 (maybe 3) exceptions. I hate Something Bad, and I hate Sentimental Man (except the part where Idina sings too, which is left off the CD). Some days I hate Wonderful, and some days I don't. Other than those songs, though, I think the music is incredible. The ensemble numbers are very strong and together, like No One Mourns the Wicked, Dancing Through Life, and One Short Day. The three songs where Idina sings alone, I just love (The Wizard and I, I'm Not That Girl, No Good Deed). She, to me, is the single best part of Wicked, and her solo numbers are more powerful than the ensemble numbers, although I love both types. Defying Gravity is just amazing. I'm sorry, but if you don't get chills when Idina goes up in the flying machine, you are not human. You can't be. In For Good, the lyrics are a bit strange, but once they sort of grow on you, they're really very beautiful. And it's a wonderful song about friendship.

The themes and messages of the show are great as well. It teaches that love can go beyond differences (Elphaba & Fiyero), and to me the most important lesson of the show involves the friendship of Elphaba and Glinda. I think it's beautiful.

So...bash away. I'm sure you'll all have comments. But I just wanted to respond to the very valid point that most people who post about loving Wicked do not give substantial reasons. So those are mine. To me, seeing Wicked is an incredible experience, from the appearance of the first monkey to the very last note of the finale. Updated On: 10/1/04 at 02:35 PM

[wickedfan2]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 2:44pm

nodaybuttoday - I wish I had said that...you put in words exactly what I love about wicked... THANK YOU...and to those who DON'T like it...I'm sure there's a show you love out there for whatever reasons so all'ssssss good...

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:11pm

Thank you for being on of the few rational Wicked fans on the board, NoDay3. I appreciate your reasons and the fact that you accept a "to each his own" approach to this.

Unlike some other folks who think people who dislike Wicked are just jealous, bitter "haters". (It's comments like those that turn people off the show and make Wicked fans look bad. I like Wicked as much as the next guy, but I'm hesitant to call myself a Wicked fan on this board because I get lumped in with people like that.)

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:17pm

There's a big difference between disliking aspects of the show and bashing...

[Jo Jo Mandingo]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:37pm

Weelllllll, I don' star in shows, but I DO write them, 6 in fact (4 touring Hasty Pudding Theatricals, 1 out of town success, one off-off B'way failure.)

I'm EXTREMELY familiar with Mr. Schwartz's work, in fact, have had the liberty to spend several wonderful days working beside him at his home while he was workshopping THE BAKER'S WIFE.

WICKED is some of his best effort to date. And I'm not going to discuss the merits of his music writing prowess with an ACTOR. You have issue with Mr. Schwartz's "story telling" in Wicked? Um .... perhaps you could take that up with Ms. Holtzman.

But then again, I'm just one of those "delerious, over-caffeinated, obsessed, rabid Wicked fans" right?

Grow up. Look at the lines around the block. Check the unit sales on the CD and the Paramount advance for the movie rights.

And keep your job at Denny's.

Yeah, that's righ, bring it, bitch.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:44pm

Wicked was ok. It was cute. There were about 3-4 good songs in a mostly mediocre score. One Short Day sounds like a Disney theme park. As Long as Your Mine sounds like it was cut from Aida. Something Bad sounds li........zzzzzzzzzzz. Wonderful is a rather silly song that is completely misplaced and the entire scene makes no sense at that point in the show. For Good is pretty, but bogs down the ending tremendously. At that point, the show seems to lose its momentum and the finale appears to be more of an afterthought (and probably was, considering it wasn't Maguire's ending). As expected, the book was very weak with gaping holes, but that is the norm for big-budget spectacles. I think I shared Namo's disappointment in that it was a missed opportunity for a truly amazing work. Having read the novel when it was first published, I was intrigued at the thought of adapting it for a musical, but when I heard Schwartz was to compose the score, I knew immediately that they were going in a completely different direction. In the end, only the concept of the novel was retained and virtually nothing else. Kristin, Idina and Carole delivered performances worthy of all the praise. In the end, the show really didn't leave a lasting impression with me. It reminded me of an amusement park ride that you ride again. Not because it was especially great, but because you liked it, though you can't remember why.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:45pm

Um, that wasn't aimed at me, and I don't know if it was meant to be tongue in cheek, but good financials is hardly indicative of waht makes a "good" show. Look at Titanic. (The movie, not the musical.)

It was also unfair of you to assume that everyone are secretly Wicked fans or just hate it because it's "cool". Are their (I use "their" because personally I like Wicked, but I can understand its weaknesses and why others who dislike it) opinions less valid than anyone else's? Surely there are some shows that you hate.

And it's also unfair to disagree with "an ACTOR"'s view on Schwartz's musical writing prowess, just because he disagrees with you. I'm sure many many many Wicked fans on here are high school kids, garbage collectors, accountants, homemakers...but I'm sure since they side with you then you're willing to accept their appreciation for Schwartz's writing and overlook the fact that they're not even in the theatre industry.

Just my 2c.

Updated On: 10/1/04 at 03:45 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:51pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Genius. Just genius. First of all, I've never worked at Dennys. I do, however, enjoy an All-American Slam breakfast.

If you can't even begin to understand that it's not only the book writer, but also the score writer's responsiblity to tell the story, then I shudder to think of the musicals you've written.

I, as a matter of fact, thought Winnie Holtzman did a good job at streamlining the book to tell the story of the musical. Originally, I was disappointed that much of the darkness of the book was left out. However, after the second time I saw the show, I went back and read the book again. I believe there is no way a watchable stage musical could have been made from that book.

As for the rest of the show, I was disappointed by muddled staging and terrible choreography. I'm in the minority that thought the design was unattractive. The two actresses were wonderful; I was actually much more impressed by the lovely Ms. Menzel after the second viewing. FOR GOOD, despite some of the granloa lyrics, genuinely moved me. DEFYING GRAVITY is thrilling. But as a cohesive score, I found it lacking. And that's ok. I still like Mr. Schwartz...a great deal. After all, I love Sondheim, but PASSION makes my skin crawl.

See. I don't have a hate. And I can recognize the good. I was just disappointed...and I think I'm allowed to be.

But cheer up, Jan. You may just write a good musical yet.

And consider it brought.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 3:59pm

To be fair, there are many out there who put down any show that's popular simply because of its popularity. They think it looks cool and it makes them appear all anarchist-Darlene-Connor-suffering-artist-teen-angsty. But those are pretty easy to spot because they rarely can support their arguments with intelligent critiques or without the use of personal insults or foul language. There have been some for Wicked, but the majority are anti-Avenue Q because it won the Tony (see signature). We've also seen them for Hairspray and Millie. Usually, they will take any opportunity to spew some bile on any thread that mentions the show.

I will say that most of the negative comments toward Wicked were just people complaining about the amount of threads on the subject. It's just a waste of time. There is always a Brooklyn or Wicked or Taboo or Hairspray or Millie that will have its devoted fans that never tire of the subject. When I get tired of the subject, I just stop reading those threads or create my own subject to discuss. It's the choice people make.

[Ebonic_Singer]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:01pm

Yeah I actually agree--now that Brooklyn is out there might be somehwat of a mutual respect for Wicked.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:06pm

OOOOO GIRL! There's gonna be a cheer-down!


I didn't mind the choreography so much as the design. Yes, there were some visually spectacular things, but considering the Clock of the Time Dragon explanation was cut from the story, the relentless clock theme in the design was a conceptual failure as its meaning had been entirely abandoned (not to mention the enormous dragon marionette).

I do, however, believe there could be a stage version of the book. Yes, it would need to be streamlined, but I think a darker, more politically driven story would have added the depth the show so desperately needed. That, and a more stylistically consistent score.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:15pm

The choreography was miserable. I liked the design a lot but I wasn't really feelin' the Wizard's Head whatchamacallit. I really liked Idina and Kristen, but thought Norbert was horribly miscast. (I love him, but not as Fiyero!!)

Oh, and Something Bad, Sentimental Man and Wonderful are unlistenable (if that was a word).

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:21pm

"But then again, I'm just one of those "delerious, over-caffeinated, obsessed, rabid Wicked fans" right?

Grow up. Look at the lines around the block. Check the unit sales on the CD and the Paramount advance for the movie rights.

And keep your job at Denny's.

Yeah, that's righ, bring it, bitch."




That is not a way to win a debate. Or even engage in a discussion. This kind of overzealous dismissive attitude exhibited just detracts from the views you've stated.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:23pm

Not only that, but the dismissive attitude towards actors is a hoot.

Without actors, he (or she) would just be little scratches on a piece of paper.

[Jo Jo Mandingo]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:26pm

wow, "wonderful", "impressed", "moved" and "thrilling" ... and yet you were dissapointed. You liked the book (of the musical), you liked the acting, but, hey, it's Wicked, you know? Only dorks admit they like it, right?

Yes dear, I'm well versed in the rudimentary mechanics of writing for the modern stage musical, how Sondheim perfected the R & H advancements of integrating plot-driven songs with the story line to bring the state of the art out of Vaudeville and into the 20th Century. I understand the brilliance of Billy's "Soliloquy" in Carousel as a precursor to Sondheim's "They All Deserve to Die" in Sweeny Todd.

Yes dear, I understand it all, thanks very much, and Mr. Schwartz does it VERY well, within the specific construct of the show. Each song advances the plot, each number is there for a structural reason (with the exception of "Welcome to OZ" which, I agree, is fluff and static - see, I can criticize a show I admire.)

I guess I'm enamoured - blindly and unapologetically, it seems - in a different way than most. Yes I love the stars, they were brilliant, but it's the craft I admire ... the imagination, the spectacle, and the expert musicianship - I'm sorry, I will not be dissuaded on that. I know great theater music, having been a student of it all my life, and this is well written stuff. Well crafted melodies, deft lyricism, incredible choral writing and some of the very best orchestral writing I've every heard from a B'way production.

This is NOT Schlock, it is incredibly detailed, honed, crafted musical art, from the 6 part charal harmonies to the sweeping orchestral underscoring.

Fini. Madame is tres fatigue. Be gone now, table 8 in the corner needs another Rooti-Tutti-Fresh-and-Frutti.

Yeah, I know I'm a bitch ... but it's so frustrating when you're right and everyone insists on being wrong. Remember that scene in "Broadcast News" between Holly Hunter and her Boss, the Network TV Head? He says (sarcastically)"It must be good to know everything, to always be right, hmm?"

No sir," she replies, deadly serious, "it's awful."

:)

[Broadwaylady]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:30pm

I think a lot of it has to do with how much Broadway you have seen over the years. I got the impression that some of the Wicked fans were very young and this were their first or second show. I go to the theater at least once a month and see musicals and plays both. I thought Wicked was okay but I did not think it was the greatest thing since apple pie. (put in your own thing) It was the fact that every day there were at least three to five different threads on Wicked. The show was out over a year and the threads still kept appearing. No one looked up the old threads to see what or was not discussed before. My point was there are at least ten other shows on Broadway showing at the same time as Wicked and they were hardly discussed. That is why people got sick of hearing about it.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:30pm

Ya know, if one truly does know it all, then why doesn't one know that the song is not called WELCOME TO OZ, but ONE SHORT DAY.

More awful than knowing it all? Thinking you do when you don't.

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:32pm

i like wicked.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:40pm

Jo Jo, are you...dare I say it?...a SHILL?? (dun dun DUN DUN DUN dunnnn...)

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 10/1/04 at 4:47pm

So far, the hatred seems to be coming from the Wicked-lovers against those who don't love it as much as they do...