Hunter Foster Responds to Urinetown Mess!- Page 4

[Juli]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 3:52am

talking about how librettos might affect staging n in someway true. Evita must at some boint sing from the balcony form la casa rosada in EVITA in the same way that in most times ive seen the show GUYS AND DOLLS the song SIT DOWN YOURE ROCKING THE BOAT has about three to four lines of gamblers diagonally spaced on one side of the stage. Sometimes these things can come out of the libretto as specified or as just comepletely obvious choices.

I think that with a show such as Urinetown there are frankly many ways in which this show could have been done overall. There is no signature pose in this show, no real significant way something was, no iconic moment. RUN FREEDOM could easily be done in other ways than just running in place. this is just like with RAGTIME, when the new productions sprung up with simpler sets and choreography some of the ways things were done, like the opening number, did reflect it in the production i saw, although the did give credit and im sure they asked permission.

im just diappointed that this is happening over a show that can easily be changed (Carrafa aint the best choreographer in town, ppl!) and not with a show like HELLO DOLLY or OKLAHOMA, where things are bound to be in some way or another copied.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 4:11am

Lildog said, "Those are brief homages to other shows, Diva, and it's disingenuous for you to not differentiate."

You say homages, I say ripping off. Maybe these productions were homages to the broadway production.

FACT: NO ONE HERE KNOWS THE WHOLE STORY! PERIOD.

So instead of getting all pissy about it, why don't we just wait and see Carrafa fail in court, which he will, because there is no way to prove malicious intent.

[Jon]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 10:30am

TheatreDiva - do yuo think tha makers or films like "Scary Movie", "Airplane", The Naked Gun", etc. are "ripping off" the films they parody? Should the makers of Austin Powers be sued by the makers of the James Bond movies? Have you EVER watched Saturday Night Live or Mad TV or The Simpsons or Family Guy???

If you can't tell the difference between parody/homage and plagiarism, you shouldn't be going to the theatre.

[Zikes]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 11:22am

HOUFlip04-

With a good enough production team and the right vision/concept "Singin' in the Rain" could work and not have to look EXACTLY like the movie. I am well aware that it was a movie first and that audiences will want to see the movie up on stage however, like I stated before, if you have a good director who has a good concept for the show it CAN work. Think of the recent revival of "Sweeney Todd", while some people were probably upset that they were not seeing the original staging with the original set and costumes, I'm sure that some of them left the theatre satisfied that night.

You also mention that they changed the script. Do you think that the reason that production flopped was because the script/story was different and not just the staging/sets/costumes?

As a designer, I personally would never knowingly copy another's work, partially because I think it's wrong, but mostly because I like coming up with ideas and designs, that is, surprisingly, why I love to design. When you copy someone else you cheat not only the person being copied, but more, you cheat yourself from having a fulfilling experience on a show.

And now my rant is over.

-Zikes.

EDIT- Some spelling and punctuation

Updated On: 11/19/06 at 11:22 AM

[Theatreboy33]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 11:38am

The Chicago Tribune has a wonderful article on this dispute today. Here is the link. Well worth a read.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/stage/chi-0611190429nov19,1,573754.story?coll=chi-ent_theater-hed

[Zikes]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 11:54am

Thanks for linking to that article, it was very interesting. I agree with some of the point he is making, however I think he can rest easy that Marriot will not be sued any time soon as they are in the round, so staging and design always has to be different than the original.

Tangent- They did an EXCELENT production of Sunset Boulevard about a year or two ago that made great use of projection and color. Really, really, excellent. -End Tangent.

I agree that what really needs to happen is some sort of symposium or something, where artists can gather and come up with guidelines and rules governing what can and can not be done with original ideas.

-Zikes

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 1:20pm

"If you can't tell the difference between parody/homage and plagiarism, you shouldn't be going to the theatre."

Yes, I can. I am playing devils advocate here.

Please don't insult my intelligence.

[Dave Paulson]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 2:59pm

The director, choreographer and designers were certainly paid for their work on the B’way show. So now, their work is so precious that it needs to be framed? PLEASE. Are they so lightly endowed with talent that they cannot secure other work? Are they all one trick ponies? If the other theatres are guilty of anything, which I doubt, it would be of laziness in their own creative processes — but frankly it was probably more the case of a producer who said ” just make it like they did on Broadway”. If any suits should be done it should be between producers. And the director and choreographer should be thankful they aren’t in a corporation or academia where your ideas and developments are considered the property of the company or university.

So let's separate the issues.

If the Choreographer of the OH and IL shows lifted 90% of the moves, then make the suit about that. Dragging the others into the suit displays nothing but the ignorance of the suit bringers regarding the contributions of their fellow theatre artists.

How can you you plagiarize lighting, for example? The LD controls: angle, color, time, intensity. To duplicate a design would be next to impossible without a similar stagehouse, and the disc from the lightboard. Other than that, the story and music dictate the placement of cues. So what do you dim wits propose, that every LD see your show so that they can purposefully NOT cue it the same? Grow up.

Sets: can you divorce chain link as a texture from West Side Story? Mirrors from A Chorus Line? Yes, if someone duplicates the entire set and uses it in exactly the same way perhaps an argument can be made. But, more often, lazy designers, unimaginative directors, bottom line producers all contribute to a usually poor re-rendering of a Broadway or Off Broadway or West End design. I've often had to fight the director who says " just use the floorplan in the back of the book."

Costumes: different actors, different fabrics available, etc. Time, geography, weather etc contribute more to the design than a previous production concept. Again, a wholesale stitch for stitch duplication is one thing, but if the idea of "T-shirts and jeans" could have been copywrited, someone would have made a fortune by now.

The "directorial Concept" I wish I had copywrited the idea that " this group of actors pull everything they need out of a trunk" 25 years ago when I started this business. No wait.. someone may have done that in the 14th century. Better get the lawyers on that. Blocking? If Don Quixote stood stock still for "Impossible Dream" in the original, does that mean that every other performer must therefore move around? Which is a less effective way of telling the story.

Sound? it is to laugh.

Even if the other theatres lifted moments wholesale from the original, take it as a compliment as having done something well that spoke to people and that your abilities to tell a story are good enough that others may not be able to find another way to do it better. Does that mean that everyone else who does the show HAS to do it poorly?

So get over yourselves. You come off as sniveling, insecure hacks. Your “precious” ideas are just that. Ideas. It’s not like these other theatres took jobs away from you. YOU ALL frankly ought be down on your knees thanking a diety of your choosing that you are able to make a living in theatre and not having to push turnips in the chow line somewhere dusty.

[Zikes]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 7:19pm

Wow.

Dave, I have to politely disagree with you on most of what you said. The fact is Designer's make a living on the ideas. Ideas are all we have, and in my opinion they have to be protected.

True, the shows in questions were not "clones" in the fact that they did not use the EXACT SAME materials, however these shows have been accused of copying the original as best as they could.

Example- If I were to copy a paper but change the way things were worded, without making any footnotes, I would still be guilty of plagiarism, because I did not write the paper using MY ideas, I used someone else's. True they may have already gotten a grade for the paper, but what I am doing is still wrong and I would be punished.

-Zikes.

[camthom]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 8:28pm

A few things to add...

as someone who has worked at the Carousel Dinner Theatre, I can tell you the former artistic director there was known for showing the cast lincoln center recordings of shows and copying PRECISELY what the original actors did onstage. I was there. I know.

secondly...caraffa...as i understand from MANY who have worked with him, he doesn't actually do a whole lot of "choreographing." He'll often stop and say..."freestyle for a little bit and let's see what you come up with." It's fairly known that this is his style of choreographing. So then, why don't the original actors in the production get credit? And where does he get off not only claiming the work is his, but going so far as to sue someone else for using it?

thirdly, both rando and caraffa recieve money from every subsequent production of urinetown that happens. it's a very standard royalty that is in every broadway ssdc contract...there are of course smaller and larger percentages, but...why are they bringing in royalties?

Writers receive royalties because their work is being performed and others are making money from it-naturally they deserve a percentage. So caraffa makes money from stealing the work of his dancers, calling it his own and then what? just wondering?

My main point being - if i do urinetown in nebraska and i pay MTI $700 for licensing it to me...caraffa and rando are both getting a piece of that pie. Why? if there work also isn't being at least somewhat recreated?

[zwielight]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 9:13pm

How do you account for all the Henry Higginses doing the Rex-talk in regional "My Fair Lady" productions around the world? No, Rex wasn't one of the show's creators, but being an original, doesn't it somewhat come with the territory that the original will be viewed as a model for all consequent productions? I myself am always slightly disappointed to hear "I'm an Ordinary Man" being sung, not spoken...

[Dave Paulson]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 10:44pm

I think this may rest in a fundamental difference in our respective understandings of what a designer does. I have ideas yes -- sometimes dozens for any given show. The contribution I make is collaborative -- I help make the collective idea of the show concrete in terms of scenery or lights or costumes -- whatever I happen to be designing. I don't "own" the idea -- it is a touchstone by which I make decisions of color, line etc. I've done Twelfth Night about 6 times now. If someone wants to use any of my designs, be my guest. Use my ideas too. Make 'em better!
As regards to the analogy of the paper, that is plagiarism -- and I have plenty of experience prosecuting that. But design isn't like a paper, a script is more comparable to a paper. The reading (performance) of a paper would be subject to time, intention, environment and interpretation -- the very worlds in which design lives.
I fear the slippery slope of a decision upholding the spuriousness of this suit. I weep for the future of the theatre. We will kill the form by eating our own young.

[Zikes]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 11:20pm

I'm sorry that you feel you don't own your ideas. While design and theatre in general is very collaborative, the ideas start and gesticulate in the designer's head. It is the designer who puts it down on paper [or the designer's team who is working for them if we are going to get ridiculously nitpicky], and it is the designer who makes sure that at the end of the day the overall look of the aspect they are in charge of is what they want, and feel happy about.

I don't think that we are killing theatre if we tell people that they have to come up with original ideas or else give a little credit to the one's who did come up with those ideas.

Yes there are iconic images for certain shows, but there is always something that can be changed about almost any aspect of a show, not including the script of course if it is licensed, and these things are what inspire people to produce shows more than once, hence the million different versions of any Shakespeare play ect…..

Also in this case, I believe my paper analogy is correct as the original production team is accusing the Chicago and Ohio company's of plagiarism of the show as a whole.

-Zikes

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/19/06 at 11:28pm

The only problem with coming up with new ideas for staging is that it takes time and money, which most smaller and regional theatres do not have. That why Broadway shows go through so many workshops before they open. It is a long and arduous process.

[Juli]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 12:12am

TheaterDiva while i do not question your intelligence im beginning to question your opinion as to why people are in theater. I am a freshman in high school and last year in the eigth grade I was assistant director in a school show. none of the kids are paid, and i myself staged most of the book scenes and chorepgraphed one number with varying levels of help from our music teacher and the choreographer we all raised money with the school to hire.

living as close as we are to the city, even though we do shows that aren't playing as of now we all used our passion and knowledge of the theater to come up with the best original things that we could do. I have to say none of us came up with ideas everytime we got a dollar. If you remember well the john doyle stagings came out of the the necesity for a cheaper production, which of course was VERY original.

So if you are interested in a career in theater i pity the fool who has to pay you money for you brain to function and come up with ideas. That's not what theater is about.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 12:41am

I've been doing it for 30 years now.

You still have no idea what it takes to put on a real show. Why do you think Broadway shows cost so much to produce?

When you are old enough to hold a paying job, then get back to me.


**Edit** I'm glad that you and your friends have all the time in the world to come up with fresh, new ideas. But, as an adult, I have bills to pay. I'm sure when you don't have to pay for rent, or food, it sounds really easy. But the bottom line is PROFESSIONALS GET PAID TO WORK.

As Mrs. Lovette said, "What a sweet child it is."

Updated On: 11/20/06 at 12:41 AM

[Juli]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 12:59am

i understand the need to get paid, but you get paid for your ideas, if you dont have an idea worth paying for then why should someone bother? why pay you to teach a dance you did not make, or for making costumes you did not come up with? i supposed logged hours can be paid for, but then u r a worker, you now then hold no artistic input into the production.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 1:04am

For your first day on this board, you are burying yourself. You have no idea how the real world works.

And try the cap button.

[i_heart_roger_bart]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 3:01am

Off topic. This is the reason I really do not like coming onto these boards very often, unless it's a pleasant topic. Everyone has to be better than everyone else. So and so knows more than so and so. It's a never-ending competition to see who knows more and then it turns into a childish insult contest. Let's see who can bring the others down first! It's pathetic. Why can't we simply stay on topic? For a good portion of this particular thread, the topic was held onto, which is rare. But now it's turning into a ridiculous argument and soon the the subject of this thread will be lost.

Sorry for the rant.

Proceed. =)

Updated On: 11/20/06 at 03:01 AM

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 3:14am

Yes, I can be quite harsh here.
Yes, sometimes we are mean and we shouldn't be but often, the reason is that the person somewhat deserves it.
In this case, Juli may not know the rules and ropes of BWW yet but after some comments from her and to her, she should have learned. I mean, come on- don't go around telling people they shouldn't be making money doing what they are doing. You don't do that whether you're an oldie or newbie on BWW.

This is probably getting on the bratty side and I appologize but do you think all your posts are ok?

You said:

"re: THE WEDDING SINGER CLOSING!!!!
Posted On: 11/19/06 at 01:09 AM

'Bout damn time this travesty of a show closes."

I happen to like Wedding Singer and if you don't like it, that's ok with me but basically being happy it is closing and calling it a travesty isn't the most appropriate thing, IMO.

Updated On: 11/20/06 at 03:14 AM

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 3:17am

If you can't stand the heat.....

[rockfenris2005]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 5:08am

I cant STAND Rancido and Carrappa

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 11:44am

Ever notice how 'Carrappa' is so close to Crappa?

[teddyp2]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 12:12pm

Love it !

These guys are the biggest LOSERS!

[Dave Paulson]

Posted: 11/20/06 at 6:39pm

Ditto that.

Only the insecure need to "own" their ideas and prevent others from embellishing, improving on, referencing etc.

I feel for the designers of the other productions who, in some instances, never even saw the original (or pictures thereof) so how could they plagiarize it? Now they have to contend with loss of reputation and hefty legal fees. May it never happen to anyone else.

If this is too far off topic: Bite me. Careless use of the law bodes ill for all.

Twenty five years in this business gives one the occasional jaded perspective. Too many good folks have been eaten by the miserly machinations of people like Rando and Carrafa.