the problem with Grey Gardens- Page 4

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 11:31am

Yeah, Feingold has a great vocabulary. So does Brantley and Simon (although they wield theirs a bit more self consciously).

I guess caryatid isn't really a marquee quote word though, huh? :P

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 11:49am

"Oh, I could go on. Living in that kind of squalor and not doing anything about it is one of the symptoms of severe mental illness. I know this from my sibling's condition."

Yup! I admittedly haven't seen the show or the documentary (I've heard the OBCR though, if that counts for anything) but from what I know about the two women as well as the show, I have to wonder if there wasn't some sort of psychopathology involved.

[artscallion]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 12:09pm

I'm sure there is, Spork. RoninJoey is right when he says, "But I think Big Edie is driven crazy by circumstance whereas Little Edie was never all right." There is definitely something off in Little Edie's way of thinking, more than bad circumstances would warrant.

In the documentary she talks at length about WWII. Her theory is that we made a mistake by sending all the healthy boys (her friends) from top notch families to fight. She says that if we had just sent the weak and sick ones, the war would have ended much sooner because they weak ones couldn't have lasted. The logic in that theory convinces, beyond a doubt that she has some sort of mental illness.

Updated On: 10/25/07 at 12:09 PM

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 3:48pm

I always thought she was at least half-joking there...

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 4:02pm

"Oh and JRB, as I understand it nobody knows why they ended the engagement and none of those circumstances happened in one night at a dinner party, they happened over many years. It's not biographical fact, none of it, just speculation aided by the outline of history. "

I already said this earlier in the thread. They condensed 3 major issues that led to their downfall into a one act piece for dramatic purposes. You can disagree all you like with the choice to do that. I think it works fine. But it's non-fiction.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 4:05pm

And not that I really have an opinion on this, but the idea that all art is flawed is really your opinion. It's not a fact. It's not even the majority opinion throughout the ages of dramatic theory and criticism. Read up on the various views of "sublime" and you will see that many have designated that some art is perfect. The Statue of David, for example.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 4:06pm

If she isn't joking about that... yeah, there is definitely something that isn't right with her thought patterns.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:19pm

Historically (before the romantic period) artists/writers/thinkers/etc. have been obsessed with the idea of perfection just as they have been obsessed with the idea fo attaining holiness, proof of God on earth. A quote from Kant:

"The judgment of taste is entirely independent of the concept of perfection."

There are undoubtedly cultures that have existed or do exist that may find the David in poor taste, or lacking. Picasso for example found beauty in what was ugly, deformed. Impressionist painters went out of their way to depict a surreal state of life (as do Korie and Frankel and Wright).

Arguably (as many early thinkers thought) perfection is not desirable because it means the end. Once you have created the perfect piece of art, what need is there to continue? The perfect book? The perfect life? Many, myself included, feel that there is much beauty in imperfection, because everything is in some way imperfect.

Perfection is a philosophical concept and no person holds the same standards for it. Therefore, no art is perfect.

If perfection is a mathematical concept or the perfect achievement of a set of rules (say, dramatic aristotelian rules), then Grey Gardens is an incredibly imperfect musical because it completely subverts the tradition even as it upholds it. I would say that the things that make Grey Gardens imperfect are some of what you love about it. Personally, I think it's really childish to even use the word perfection. What the heck is it even supposed to MEAN, besides in the most general, buzzwordish sense?

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:29pm

I think Little Edie has a fairly brilliant mind.

She said some profoundly intelligent and moving things in her lifetime. Things that are quoted, pondered and highly effective to this day. She also had a devilish sense of humor. If anything, she was "emotionally challenged" (or retarded if you will), and dealt with her wide range of feelings as a young girl would have. I'm not saying she didn't have legitimate mental problems, but "non-conformity" and a "uniqueness" in the way she chose to live her life is not a reason to lock someone up. It kind of scares me that some of you (and others out there as well) are so quick to condemn her "in total" for thinking and behaving differently.

It's fairly chilling, actually.

I think one of the reasons why the documentary is still around, still inspiring people to think and to create new "art" in honor of it, is because of Little Edie and her musings on life, love, opportunity, politics, etc.

A brilliant, unique mind.

Not without its problems and "handicaps," but not ENTIRELY a raving nut-case either.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:32pm

And like I said--I don't even have an opinion on the matter either way. Is any art truly perfect--I dunno. My point was that there are different views on the subject. I just wanted to counter your grand proclamation.

I don't think I would say that GG was perfect. And my definition of perfect in terms of writing would simply refer to the piece needing absolutely nothing more or less to be a thrilling evening of theatre. And by that definition, I think there are quite a few "perfect" pieces of theatre. I just don't agree with any of the supposed flaws listed here.

But by the definition I can easily assume you are using, perhaps no art is perfect, I haven't thought too much on it as I *try* to avoid "perfectionism" in my creating of art and I don't always expect it of others. If it exists, it's rare I would guess.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:36pm

I think the beauty in art is the strive for perfection, not in the achievement of it.

Perfection in and of itself is fairly boring, artistically.

But I don't think we can ever be clear on that, since (as you said Jerby), "perfection" is really in the eye of the beholder.

Is the Statue of David perfect? Many would say yes. Others would start picking it apart (i.e., well, NO, his right hand is way too big, and so's his head, etc.). The debate could (and likely will) go on forever.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:38pm

And, of course, one could still find it a rather thrilling evening of theatre and still think that the connective tissue to link Acts 1 and 2 to make the entire evening truly transcendent just didn't exist.

But that's just me.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:50pm

Well, when I say I try to avoid perfection in my art, I really mean that I am trying to stop expecting it. It gets in the way to be hard on yourself or perfectionist. The goal--my goal--is to continue working as hard as I have--and even harder--without that stress on my shoulders. I doubt I am making sense lol, but it's kind of hard to put into words.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 5:59pm

Great post, Roninjoey

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 6:14pm

best12bars: Eccentric is one thing. But when it goes to levels that are psychopathological (self-neglect being one)...

[artscallion]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 6:26pm

"It kind of scares me that some of you (and others out there as well) are so quick to condemn her "in total" for thinking and behaving differently."

Just to be clear. I'm not doing that. I ran a business for years that was set up just to employ and give dignity to people with emotional illnesses, including schizophrenia and bipolar disorder among others. When you spend that much time with people with these illnesses you become able to spot particular behaviors and thought patterns that go along with different conditions. I'm just saying I recognize some of these in Edie.

I never equate the notion of mental illness with that of condemnation. I think Edie is one of the most glorious people I've encountered in this life and a tribute to individuality.

As far as art and perfection and this whole debate about whether or not Grey Gardens is flawed or not, JRBY and Ronin are both right and should stop arguing about it. Neither one of you can define perfection or imperfection for the other one. Art is in the eye of both the creator and the beholder. Ronin, you can't tell JRBY it has flaws, because it only has them for you. It doesn't have them for him and vice versa.

I love Grey Gardens. It works for me and I think it is close to perfect for me. There's not a thing anyone can say that will make that untrue, because you don't have the power to decide what works in my world. And likewise JRBY can't tell anyone who finds flaws in it that the flaws aren't there. They aren't in your world and perspective. But they are in his.

This is not to discourage discussion of these things. But it seams to have developed into a push to prove the other wrong, which neither of you can really do.

[best12bars]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 7:43pm

nicely said, artscallion!

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/25/07 at 11:15pm

This thread has become very interesting since I last read it. I love discussions about art.

Since art is "art" and not a science which can be measured by determined and proven formulas or charts, no one can really say what is perfect or not. The hackneyed phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is so true and always will be, thanks god.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 10/26/07 at 9:50am

Yeah JRB, I think the quest for perfection can only end up driving a person crazy. It's more about the journey than the end.

Thanks, ScaryWarhol.

Best12, I do firmly believe that Little Edie was mentally handicapped but I don't think I've ever condemned her for it. It's unfortunate she never had a positive caretaker, although she was able to function. My grandmother was similiar to Little Edie (less independent though) and it was always difficult for my family.

Still, Edie's eccentricity, her independence, her mother, these are what made her who she was and iconic. I won't glorify the unsavory parts of her personality. Perhaps I wouldn't want to spend an extended amount of time with her or make her an important fixture in my life but she would be a great casual friend, an alternative thinker. My criticisms are towards the play, not her.

At any rate nice thoughts ArtScallion. I never viewed this thread as an argument but rather a really interesting thread on a play that's worth the effort. I would love to go back to talking about the play itself, particularly the music (which is brilliantly utilized), the way it plumbs the characters' psychological depths.

I think I wouldn't try to dissuade someone from even thinking "In My Life" was the greatest musical ever if that's what they believed in their heart of hearts, although I might damn well ask them why. I always want to know the why.

And I'm totally with what RobbieJ said.