Why did Bonnie & Clyde flop?- Page 3

[StageManager2]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 6:46pm

¿?Macavity?: "These are all interesting points, but why has this thread come back? I have no problem with it, it just seems to come out of the blue."

 

Last weekend, I finally watched a bootleg of the Broadway show, which I enjoyed very much (to my surprise), so I searched to see if there were any B&C threads remaining, just to see what people had to say at the time, since I didn't participate in the discussion(s) back in 2011. This was the first thread I found on Google when I searched "Bonnie and Clyde BroadwayWorld."

Besides, this thread is from March of this year, so it's not like I resurrected an ancient thread.

Updated On: 7/29/16 at 06:46 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 7:06pm

Since it was a Wildhorn show, it was dead on arrival no matter how good it was.

[Back Row]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 7:26pm

As I recall, they were scrambling until the last minute just to get the cash to get the show open, so it seems that the show was extremely undercapitalized. Jordan and Osnes are names that can sell tickets these days, but back then, they were almost complete unknowns, as was the rest of the cast. Even if they had received better reviews, they were doomed to failure from the start. There was just not enough cash to keep them afloat even for a few weeks. 

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 7:26pm

Why does any of the truth really matter in a dramatic retelling? Make Cylde bi. It's juicier. Make the Barrow Gang setting full of debauchery and hedonism. It tells a better story. 

Wasn't Angelica Schuyler actually married by the time she met Hamilton? Weren't three really five sisters and not three? Who cares what the actual facts were- this isn't a documentary or a college history lecture- it's the dramatic telling of some historical figures. The truth will and bent and frankly should be bent to tell the best story possible. 

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 7:34pm

And here's a quote from a website I just found.  Appears the issue isn't as cut and dry as you would like us to believe; totally fair game to include in the musical:

Bonnie thrilled to the murders Clyde committed and emulated them, but the couple had little or no sexual relationship. Clyde was almost indifferent to heterosexual unions. He preferred young men, admitting to Bonnie that he had become addicted to homosexual practices while in the reformatory. When they took young men into the gang, such as W.D. Jones and Henry Methvin, it was understood that both Bonnie and Clyde would have relationships with these apprentice bandits.

 

http://www.annalsofcrime.com/01-01.htm

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 7:40pm

That article also says Bonnie Parker was illiterate. The woman wrote poetry.

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 7:55pm

That's true! She was even on the honor roll at school for creative writing I believe. 

My point is, I don't care what's true or not. As long as you don't say Bonnie was born on Mars and landed on Earth in a spaceship, I'm just out to be entertained. You could dramatize them as evil, cunning, murderous creatures or two poor kids who got swept up in the systematic oppression of poverty and the prison system. Doesn't matter to me. Don't care. Just make it interesting. Dramatic. And preferably offer some new angle on the pair that hasn't been done to death in other films, tv shows and books. 

I think the hedonistic approach, with them becoming sexually aroused by the crimes with the other members of the gang would be a good one. It could be like a kind of Wild Party at the Barrow Gang hideout and instead of more gin they would need more blood on their hands to get through another day.  

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 8:02pm

I'll agree with that. I was actually kind of devistated when they cut "This Never Happened Before" as I thought the song was georgeous in La Jolla and I believe it's in the CD booklet where the creative team stated that they cut it because they couldn't find any real evidence of Clyde's impotence. My first thought was how interesting it would have been if they had kept the song and addressed the rumor, perhaps by portraying Clyde as impotent in the fist act and hypersexualized after his first and subsequent murders. 

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 7/29/16 at 8:12pm

Yeah- exactly! It's more interesting if he's impotent at first and then we chart his sexual history as he meets Bonnie, goes to prison and then finally hits sexual pay dirt when he starts robbing and killing. It's twisted, by far more intriguing. Plus, it's all true enough. 

[blaxx]

Posted: 7/30/16 at 3:48am

Why do Wildhorn shows have to be on Broadway when every single one of them has flopped in the Great White way?

NYC is more than Broadway; I never understand why producers insist on the biggest theater for a composer that obviously can't yet find a connection with audiences within that environment. 

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 7/30/16 at 8:03am

I frankly have no idea why it flopped. I'm far from a Wildhorn fan (found Pimpernel and J&H excruciating) but especially Act 1 of Bonnie and Clyde gave me more musical theater pleasure than most nights I spent on Broadway that year. The ways they musicalized scenes were original and emotional and told the story with beauty and quirkiness that I really loved. Jordan and Osnes were dazzling. The music was a brave mix of authentic period melodies with a bizarre rockabilly slant that shouldn't have worked for me but really did. And I do believe the lyrics were the best of Wildhorn's career. I remember walking into the lobby at intermission so happy at the night we were having (and surprised there hadn't been more positive buzz for the piece).

No way to couch it-- Act 2 was a big let down. A battery of inferior songs came one after the other led by the abhorrent "Made in America", and nothing really happened! We already knew what the last scene would be since they had shown it to us in the prologue, so the getting there had better have some great surprises up its sleeve. Nope-- the plot went from C to D to E with absolutely no swerves along the way. Oh well.

I still think Act 1 was superb and the score is in heavy rotation on my phone.

 

Updated On: 7/30/16 at 08:03 AM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 7/30/16 at 12:04pm

They already did the impotent angle in the 1967 film. After they scrapped the ménage à trois nonsense, the writers decided to make Clyde impotent, instead, because they argued that Bonnie and Clyde couldn't just commit felonies and be happy. They needed something to keep them apart, to overcome -- in this case, his impotence, which Bonnie finally 'cures' by writing the poem about them. Somehow that did the trick in the movie.

 

BTW: I forgot to mention upthread that the source of Clyde's supposed homosexuality/impotence was the popular 1963 book The Dillinger Days, which focused on the Public Enemy Era. B&C have a mere mention, but it's mostly lies. Though that book was written by Pulitzer Prize-winning author John Toland, a lot of its content has been discredited, especially the B&C section. For what it's worth.

[WhizzerMarvin]

Posted: 7/30/16 at 5:32pm

Someone in a Tree, Made in America IS abhorrent! Truly one of Frank's worst. The lyrics are all clumsy and painful, but this one made me laugh out loud at the first preview: You can't blame those kids from wanting to fill up their shopping bags, City Hall is low on kindness, but it don't run outta flags!! LOL

I agree with you that they didn't know what to do with these characters in act two. The creators seemed far more interested in the boy meets girl story than the crime spree side of things. 

[Capeguy]

Posted: 7/30/16 at 6:20pm

It's been awhile now but from what I remember -- I really liked Jeremy Jordan and Laura Osnes. We're all familiar with the basic story so there were no surprises. Nonetheless, the second act should have left you with a Sweeney Todd-type impact but it just came to an end. I remember looking at the audience around me and everyone just seemed to grab their coat and leave. There was no emotion -- nothing. With some changes -- it may have worked.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 7/30/16 at 9:41pm

The ending is tricky. In La Jolla they ended the show with a montage of various lines and comments spoken by the supporting characters that reminded me a bit of the line of survivors offering their insight into the tragedy at the end of the Titanic musical. For me that provided a little bit more of an emotional punch just to hear the aftermath of their deaths from friends and family members who still loved Clyde and Bonnie in spite of everything. It also helped that the show did not open with their deaths in La Jolla. We already know they're going to die when we take our seats so I've never understood the point of opening the show with the shootout like they did on Broadway. The La Jolla production also used a more upbeat reprise of "This World Will Remember Us" that they cut and replaced with the reprise of "Dyin' Ain't So Bad" on Broadway. I go back and fourth over which version I like better, but maybe they should have stuck with their first instinct and kept their original ending.

[¿Macavity?]

Posted: 7/31/16 at 12:38am

Hmm... I'd love to see this show. I think it has a nice score, but that's just me.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 8/3/16 at 3:38pm

I agree that Act II needed a bit of work. This is when they should've introduced one or two members of the Barrow Gang, particularly W.D. Jones  and/or Henry Methvin. Jones was 16 (later turned 17) and from the same squatters' camp (under the Oak Cliff Viaduct) as the Barrows. In fact, he was a good friend of Clyde's younger brother and idolized Clyde, who was six years older.  He was on the run with B&C for longer (nearly a year) than were Buck & Blanche (three months). He'd joined up four months prior to B&B's arrival.

 

Methvin was B&C's final accomplice. In January 1934 (six months after Buck's/Blanche's death/capture, and four months after Jones' departure), they engineered a jailbreak at Eastham to free their former gang member, Raymond Hamilton. One guard was killed, another wounded, and in the confusion, four other inmates (Methvin included) took the opportunity to flee. Shortly afterward, Hamilton and the three other escapees left B&C, save for Methvin, who accepted their proposal to join the gang. Little did they know that they had just sealed their fate by inadvertently freeing Methvin and welcoming him into the group.

 

At any rate, the betrayal of Bonnie & Clyde is a crucial element in their story; it was the only way the police could catch them, because they always escaped the shootouts and other attempts, even if their gang members were being killed or captured. In the musical, the cops figure out on their own that B&C routinely visit their parents, and the pair is gunned down on their way to meet up with their families in West Dallas. In actuality, they were  shot in Louisiana, where the Methvins lived. So, they were on their way to meet up with Methvin, who'd accidentally been separated from the duo. They had designated a meeting spot on a deserted stretch of highway, near Gibsland. When Methvin's father learned of this, he informed Hamer et al., who'd been harassing the Methvins for weeks. In exchange, Methvin would be cleared of the cold-blooded murders of two, young Texas highway patrolmen in April. In that incident, Methvin, who was unaware of B&C's penchant for kidnapping cops, taking them on a joyride, and then releasing them unharmed, misunderstood Clyde's "Let's take 'em!" to mean "Let's kill 'em!" Methvin opened fired at the unsuspecting officers, who had stopped to see if the motorists were stranded and needed help; Clyde helped to finish them off, since the deed was already done. 

 

During this time, Hamer et al. were already trying to negotiate with Methvin's father, but Henrys' major part in the killings threw a wrench into the plans. So, to work around that, they completely erased Methvin from the scene and put the gun in Bonnie's hands, instead.  This was the version that the public was told. Thus, public opinion quickly turned against the pair over this gruesome killing... on Easter Sunday, no less... especially after it was revealed that one of the officers was engaged to be married within a week, and that his wife wore her wedding dress to his funeral.

 

After writing all that, I think Methvin would've been crucial to Act II. The betrayal would've added to the tragedy.

Updated On: 8/3/16 at 03:38 PM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 8/4/16 at 12:18pm

CATSBTrevival: "It also helped that the show did not open with their deaths in La Jolla. We already know they're going to die when we take our seats so I've never understood the point of opening the show with the shootout like they did on Broadway."

 

Since they used historical photographs throughout the show, they should've started the show with the "How 'Bout a Dance?" instrumental prolog playing in complete darkness. Then a barrage of gunfire is heard. Then a newsreel footage of the shooting aftermath appears on the scrim. The newscaster is heard saying: "The inevitable end: retribution. Here is Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker, who died as they lived. By the gun. Bonnie is seen leaning against Clyde. Clyde was an expert gunman. Seldom did anyone live when Clyde got the first shot." Then "Picture Show" commences, as the story flashes back in time.

 

Then, at the end, when they ride off into the sunset, once again with the "How 'Bout a Dance?" instrumental playing, when the music stops and then blackout, another newsreel footage should appear on the scrim, this time of their respective funerals, in which the newscaster is heard exclaiming how large the crowds are and ends it with "In the last few words of Bonnie's own poem, which she penned before her death: 'To a few it means grief, to the law it's relief, but it's death to Bonnie and Clyde.' Clearly, crime does not pay."

I think that would've been a simple but effective way of showing their deaths/funerals. Osnes and Jordan looked silly at the beginning covered in fake blood. Not to mention that showing their massive funerals (thousands upon thousands showed up) would show that they achieved immortality, which was their goal all along, and they'll forever be known collectively as 'Bonnie and Clyde.'

 

BTW: those statements I quoted are from the actual newsreels; I didn't make them up.

 

CATSNYrevival: "The La Jolla production also used a more upbeat reprise of 'This World Will Remember Us' that they cut and replaced with the reprise of 'Dyin' Ain't So Bad' on Broadway. I go back and fourth over which version I like better, but maybe they should have stuck with their first instinct and kept their original ending."

 

I didn't see the La Jolla production, but Act I already ended with "This World Will Remember Us" reprise. IMO, it would've been overkill to include a third reprise. Besides, IMO, "Dyin' Ain't So Bad" works perfectly at the end. It's the point when they realize that death awaits them literally down the road. Well, Bonnie already made that realization during the first time she sang "Dyin' Ain't So Bad," when she pauses to write something in her journal after singing "When his days are through / Mine will be too." That's the moment when she finishes her last poem. But it takes until the finale for Clyde to realize that death awaits them, sooner than later. He thinks he's invincible throughout, until that vulnerable moment, when Bonnie has to console him. Having an upbeat song at that point ruins the moment, IMO.

Updated On: 8/4/16 at 12:18 PM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/4/16 at 1:44pm

By upbeat I just meant the tempo. It was still a somber ending. The reprise helped to bookend the show and the overall theme of the La Jolla version which seemed slightly more focused on the immortality angle rather than it not being so sad since they both died together. The reprise followed the series of spoken lines ending with Bonnie's mother reiterating that her baby was coming home. Then Bonnie sang her "How 'Bout a Dance" fragment and it ended, I believe, with Clyde and Bonnie kissing not driving off, but that may have just been because there was no car built like that for La Jolla to show them driving off.

Updated On: 8/4/16 at 01:44 PM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/4/16 at 1:59pm

Which reminds me, the act one finale was different in La Jolla too. They sang "This World Will Remember Us" but the act ended with the hold up scene in the shop where they argue over it being Clyde and Bonnie or Bonnie and Clyde and Clyde shooting the sherif deputy. It ended with Clyde's first kill which I liked a lot better. Ending the act with just the song on Broadway was a bit anticlimactic in comparison. 

[Alex Kulak]

Posted: 8/4/16 at 7:02pm

Of Wildhorn's shows, Bonnie & Clyde is the second best next to Jekyll & Hyde in my opinion. Most of the songs work very well, and Laura and Jeremy do a great job, but like most Wildhorn shows, there's a point where the score gets stopped dead in it's tracks with power ballad after power ballad. On top of that, from the footage I've seen, the staging is *very* poor, like where it feels like there's a hundred people on stage and you can't make out a single face. Plus Wildhorn is almost the Shyamalan of theatre, his name on a playbill can leave a bad taste in your mouth.