Representation- Page 2

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 3:46pm

And no, I don't understand why it is now considered "cool" to intentionally misuse the word "woke".

I'm with you.  Every time I hear "woke" used like that, I get ratchet feels.  And recently, "far out" has suddenly reemerged as a replacement expletive for an f-bomb with the opposite meaning it had in the 70s.  I'm wondering if I should start using "jive turkey" as a superlative compliment.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 4:21pm

haterobics said: "Lot666 said: "And no, I don't understand why it is now considered "cool" to intentionally misuse the word "woke"."

It isn't being misused, it is being transformed to represent a new thing, like how language works."

It's just shorthand for an awakening to political consciousness, the realities of privilege, and social stratification, etc. The language of finally being awakened or having your eyes opened has been used for a long time. Kate Chopin's The Awakening? I'm not sure (though I have my guesses) why someone would find "woke" offensive.

Also, I'm just glad this hasn't become a trash fire yet. No good was going to come from the OP dumping those questions here.

[haterobics]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 4:28pm

VintageSnarker said: "It's just shorthand for an awakening to political consciousness, the realities of privilege, and social stratification, etc. The language of finally being awakened or having your eyes opened has been used for a long time. Kate Chopin's The Awakening?"

I always think of The Matrix as a good example, as well.

"Also, I'm just glad this hasn't become a trash fire yet. No good was going to come from the OP dumping those questions here."

We dragged it off topic so fast the original query never gained any traction, heh.

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 4:28pm

I dunno, Hedwig?  I dint understand some of these things, ballsy for a neophyte.

 

[Oak2]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 4:45pm

Interestingly enough, people on the other side of the political spectrum use a different word for "woke", but which essentially means the same thing to them, albeit their Idea of "waking up to what I/the side I currently agree with believes is the reality about the world rather than the lies society is forcing upon you". Young left-wingers call it "woke". Young Right-wingers, at least in certain factions/sites, call it "red-pilled" (referencing the famous scene from the Matrix, of course).

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 5:26pm

Oak2 said: "Interestingly enough, people on the other side of the political spectrum use a different word for "woke", but which essentially means the same thing to them, albeit their Idea of "waking up to what I/the side I currently agree with believes is the reality about the world rather than the lies society is forcing upon you". Young left-wingers call it "woke". Young Right-wingers, at least in certain factions/sites, call it "red-pilled" (referencing the famous scene from the Matrix, of course)."

I thought "red pill" was for reddit, 4chan, and MRA's. You know. The best people.

[Oak2]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 5:45pm

VintageSnarker said: "Oak2 said: "Interestingly enough, people on the other side of the political spectrum use a different word for "woke", but which essentially means the same thing to them, albeit their Idea of "waking up to what I/the side I currently agree with believes is the reality about the world rather than the lies society is forcing upon you". Young left-wingers call it "woke". Young Right-wingers, at least in certain factions/sites, call it "red-pilled" (referencing the famous scene from the Matrix, of course)."

I thought "red pill" was for reddit, 4chan, and MRA's. You know. The best people."

Yes, those would be the certain factions of Right-wingers I alluded to.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 5/23/18 at 11:08pm

You guys, it's really simple. You are not woke unless you have actors of the EXACT race, gender identity (which is NOT the same thing as biological sex, you cisgender a**holes), sexual orientation, or species of the character they are playing. It's 2018 everyone. COME ON.

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 12:21am

https://twitter.com/christiannborle/status/999077116598738945

AND every age, apparently. This sh!t is getting ridiculous.

[lilac3]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 12:50pm

I mean... yeah? Actors who play teenagers should be able to pass as teenagers. Take Mean Girls for example, a lot of the cast are clearly a lot older than 17 and although they may be talented it is a bit ridiculous to have actors in their late 20s or even early 30s in some cases playing 17 year olds. Realistically they just need to pass as the character's age, for example, Laura Dreyfuss is 28 (I think) but looks younger.

As for ethnicity, I would think that it's pretty obvious that black characters should be played by black actors, etc, it's hardly a lot to ask.

[haterobics]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 4:42pm

lilac3 said: "As for ethnicity, I would think that it's pretty obvious that black characters should be played by black actors, etc, it's hardly a lot to ask."

Heh, first week here, I see...

[Oak2]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 4:58pm

What if the character is evil or a criminal? Isn't it problematic to portray an evil character as anything other than white?

[lilac3]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:01pm

haterobics said: Heh, first week here, I see... "

Ha! I've been lurking for a while. I think it should be obvious, although it clearly isn't to certain people hahaha

Updated On: 5/24/18 at 05:01 PM

[haterobics]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:04pm

lilac3 said: "Ha! I've been lurking for a while. I think it should be obvious, although it clearly isn't to certain people hahaha"

Without context, it is hard to agree or disagree. What is a black character? Why does that character need to be black? Are you insisting on authorial intent or opposed to colorblind casting? No one knows.

[lilac3]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:09pm

haterobics said: "lilac3 said: "Ha! I've been lurking for a while. I think it should be obvious, although it clearly isn't to certain people hahaha"

Without context, it is hard to agree or disagree. What is a black character? Why does that character need to be black? Are you insisting on authorial intent or opposed to colorblind casting? No one knows."

I was referring to characters who are written as a particular ethnicity such as those in Hairspray etc. I think if an actor is written to be a certain ethnicity they should be played by that ethnicity, that's what I thought was obvious. I'm not opposed to colour blind casting at all, I think if a role isn't written as a particular ethnicity than it can be played by any suitable actor.

[Oak2]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:16pm

What if a character originally had no specific race assigned to them, but the first person cast in the role was a POC? Or even if the character is written as non-specific and was originally had a white person cast in the role, but then later a POC took the role? Does that one POC playing the role then eternally change the role into a "POC's only" role? Or is there just a time limit on it? (IE, having the very next person playing the role after the POC leaves be white guy is racist, but waiting several years until the next revival to cast a white person int he role is ok)? I recall an argument to this effect being made about Great Comet or something a while back...

Updated On: 5/24/18 at 05:16 PM

[haterobics]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:20pm

lilac3 said: "I was referring to characters who are written as a particular ethnicity such as those in Hairspray etc. I think if an actor is written to be a certain ethnicity they should be played by that ethnicity, that's what I thought was obvious."

If the book of the show needs a specific thing for the show to actually work, that is not too controversial... although you will still find enough people to argue the contrary on here if you try hard enough.

[lilac3]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:22pm

Oak2 said: "What if a character originally had no specific race assigned to them, but the first person cast in the role was a POC? Or even if the character is written as non-specific and was originally had a white person cast in the role, but then later a POC took the role? Does that one POC playing the role then eternally change the role into a "POC's only" role? Or is there just a time limit on it? (IE, having the very next person playing the role after the POC leaves be white guy is racist, but waiting several years until the next revival to cast a white person int he role is ok)? I recall an argument to this effect being made about Great Comet or something a while back..."

I don't know a lot about the whole Great Comet drama but generally I think that roles with no specific ethnicity can be played by actors of any ethnicity no matter who previously played them.

[ggersten]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:31pm

I was referring to characters who are written as a particular ethnicity such as those in Hairspray etc. I think if an actor is written to be a certain ethnicity they should be played by that ethnicity, that's what I thought was obvious. I'm not opposed to colour blind casting at all, I think if a role isn't written as a particular ethnicity than it can be played by any suitable actor.

The authors of Hairspray disagree with you.  https://www.mtishows.com/show-full-billing/1701

If your production of Hairspray features actors who are portraying characters whose race may be other than their own, you may elect to include the below letter from the creators of Hairspray in your program. You are not permitted to edit the letter in any way.

 

Dear Audience Members,

When we, the creators of HAIRSPRAY, first started licensing the show to high-schools and community theatres, we were asked by some about using make-up in order for non-African Americans to portray the black characters in the show.

Although we comprehend that not every community around the globe has the perfectly balanced make-up (pardon the pun) of ethnicity to cast HAIRSPRAY as written, we had to, of course, forbid any use of the coloring of anyone's face (even if done respectfully and subtly) for it is still, at the end of the day, a form of blackface, which is a chapter in the story of race in America that our show is obviously against.

Yet, we also realized, to deny an actor the chance to play a role due to the color of his or her skin would be its own form of racism, albeit a "politically correct" one.

And so, if the production of HAIRSPRAY you are about to see tonight features folks whose skin color doesn't match the characters (not unlike how Edna has been traditionally played by a man), we ask that you use the timeless theatrical concept of "suspension of disbelief" and allow yourself to witness the story and not the racial background (or gender) of the actors. Our show is, after all, about not judging books by their covers! If the direction and the actors are good (and they had better be!) you will still get the message loud and clear. And hopefully have a great time receiving it!

Thank You,

Marc, Scott, Mark, Tom & John

 

[Oak2]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:42pm

Hairspray makes me think of another representation question, though obviously not anywhere NEAR as imporant as racial, gender, or sexuality representation: body-type representation. Is it acceptable to cast a skinny actor as a traditionally fat character? With or without a fatsuit? Are fatsuits offensive? Is it excusable because of the idea that fat dancers are a rarity or at least assumed to be a rarity? (I don't actually know if they're that rare or not, but I know the common conception is that it's mutually exclusive, with the idea that any theatre role would be physically active enough that it'd be impossible to do the job and still be fat). (And I guess I should disclaim that I am a fat person - I'm just curious about opinions).

[dramamama611]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 5:56pm

LMM has said something similar....if/When Hamilton goes to schools. I think he also said that level, he'd support female founding fathers. (He has also given schools permission to not worry about race for ITH)

However it's not the norm.

I was turned down from switching the African American character in The Boys Next Door to a Caucasian, even though there is nothing in the text to support it. It didn't matter that we have zero persons of color.

I was disappointed, as I love that play, but whatcha going to do?

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 6:48pm

That Hairspray letter insert is odd. To me it comes across as, "We don't want blackface but we also don't want people not producing our show due to a lack of black actors, so just use your imagination and thanks for the royalty checks!"

Anyway, theater is for the AUDIENCE, not the actors. If you're going to cast, say, a traditionally white, able-bodied, cisgender male character with an actor who is none of those things, do it so that members of the audience can see themselves represented onstage - not to "give an opportunity" to an actor. Being turned down for a role because you don't look the way the author obviously intended the character to look, or the way the director imagines the character to look, is something every actor from educational theater to Broadway experiences. Some actors experience it more than others. Being an actor sucks - period. But you do it for the audience, not for yourself.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 5/24/18 at 7:15pm

Oak2 said: "What if the character is evil or a criminal? Isn't it problematic to portray an evil character as anything other than white?"

Short answer: no. Longer answer: It depends on the context. For example... is the evil non-white character the ONLY non-white character? Does the nature of the evil play into specific negative racial (or gender or sexual-orientation based, etc.) stereotypes? How relevant is the race of the actor to your understanding of the play and the relationship dynamics between the characters? These aren't "evil" characters but compare Helene in Great Comet to pretty much all the characters in the play Junk.

RE: Body Type Representation

I think we actually do need to challenge the idea that body size/type is an accurate determination of health and athletic ability. There are skinny people who are unhealthy. There are fat people who exercise and can dance. You can also file this under "conventional attractiveness." One thing I did appreciate about Come From Away was that while they're still actors and therefore more conventionally attractive than the general populace, they looked more "normal" than the generally young, super fit Broadway musical casts we tend to see. I personally don't find a fatsuit "offensive" exactly but I would question whether they tried hard enough to find the right actor (especially if there's no mid-show weight loss that would explain why they needed to cast a smaller actor). And I do think it is offensive to still be making fat characters the target of lazy humor.

Also, I can sense that we're heading for the trash fire.