Sweeney Todd questions (WARNING: Possible spoilers!)- Page 3

[Jenny1284]

Posted: 2/11/06 at 2:07pm

During "Green Finch and Linnet Bird" they put the light on a small cage with a blonde-haired doll inside. I think that kind of speaks for itself, emphasizing how Johanna feels like a bird trapped in a cage. I always have difficulty making out the other props, though.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/11/06 at 2:10pm

Yeah, I've seen the way they light the cage as well. But I haven't really noticed anything else. I'll look to the prop lighting the next time I see the show.

[InTheRed]

Posted: 2/11/06 at 2:14pm

They light the crucifix when the judge is singing his "Johanna"!
I think they light it at other points too...

Updated On: 2/11/06 at 02:14 PM

[mint0621]

Posted: 2/11/06 at 4:55pm

They also light a random doll on the shelf as well. Perhaps it symbolizes Johanna's childhood? Or loss thereof?

[InTheRed]

Posted: 2/11/06 at 7:01pm

Aren't there flowers lit at one point?
When Mrs. Lovett sings "By the Sea"?

[Prettylittlepicture2]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 12:52am

Totally off-topic for a second, but BroadwayChica! It's me, Ali(2).

[Gypsy2]

Posted: 2/15/06 at 6:14pm

Ali! It's Ally! We just need to find Ali, Steph and Colleen and we're set.

[joshy]

Posted: 2/16/06 at 12:09pm

Oh my god, this thread is so incredible. I just saw the production yesterday, the UK tour, and I found it so exhilarating and thought-provoking and this thread has all the things I thought of and just so many more. I loved the way later twists of the story were referenced by the asylum inmates before they were revealed to the audience, so you'd only pick up on them as an audience member if you already knew the story. For example a moment when Mrs Lovett is telling Sweeney to forget about Lucy, she waves her arm towards the Beggar Woman, who looks upset at this. I found little things like that really powerful...as well as a moment after the Beggar Woman had been murdered when she got her white coat and walked past Johanna (and the actress playing her had the most beautiul expressive face) and she paused on passing Johanna and they shared this look...the moment just had so much weight. @&~*@$%^!~!@!ILOVETHISPRODUCTION

[joshy]

Posted: 2/16/06 at 12:10pm

Oh my god, this thread is so incredible. I just saw the production yesterday, the UK tour, and I found it so exhilarating and thought-provoking and this thread has all the things I thought of and just so many more. I loved the way later twists of the story were referenced by the asylum inmates before they were revealed to the audience, so you'd only pick up on them as an audience member if you already knew the story. For example a moment when Mrs Lovett is telling Sweeney to forget about Lucy, she waves her arm towards the Beggar Woman, who looks upset at this. I found little things like that really powerful...as well as a moment after the Beggar Woman had been murdered when she got her white coat and walked past Johanna (and the actress playing her had the most beautiul expressive face) and she paused on passing Johanna and they shared this look...the moment just had so much weight. @&~*@$%^!~!@!ILOVETHISPRODUCTION

[joshy]

Posted: 2/16/06 at 12:11pm

Oh my god, this thread is so incredible. I just saw the production yesterday, the UK tour, and I found it so exhilarating and thought-provoking and this thread has all the things I thought of and just so many more. I loved the way later twists of the story were referenced by the asylum inmates before they were revealed to the audience, so you'd only pick up on them as an audience member if you already knew the story. For example a moment when Mrs Lovett is telling Sweeney to forget about Lucy, she waves her arm towards the Beggar Woman, who looks upset at this. I found little things like that really powerful...as well as a moment after the Beggar Woman had been murdered when she got her white coat and walked past Johanna (and the actress playing her had the most beautiul expressive face) and she paused on passing Johanna and they shared this look...the moment just had so much weight. @&~*@$%^!~!@!ILOVETHISPRODUCTION

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/16/06 at 12:14pm

Ah, Joshy, I'm so glad to hear that!! I've been hearing mixed reviews about the UK production, but I'm glad you found it so thought provoking. I could go on and on about this show. I love how it has opened the door to thought provoking discussion, which is, unfortunately, somewhat of a rare ocurrence in internet message boards.

I'd LOVE to hop on a plane and get over there to see this!!!

And I know it's late, but HI ALLI(S)!!! And Colleen, where you at girl?

[joshy]

Posted: 2/16/06 at 5:28pm

Jason Donovan wasn't a great Sweeney - I liked some of his singing, but his acting was pretty poor - but I adored the rest of the cast. So talented and energetic. I found this gorgeous quote which sums up why I think this production is so great:

"When a cellist plays a fast tremolo in the pit, it's because that's in the score. When Johanna does, it's because she's totally terrified. She even, at one point, hides behind her cello while still playing it."

I think Jeremy Sams said it? I don't know musical terms and stuff, but when Johanna is going crazyfast on the cello with that look of horror on her face - that was powerful. I can't say for sure, but on the new recording Lauren Molina sounds a bit gutsier - for example when she says "I'd rather die!" she sounds kind of bratty teenager to me, while the Johanna I saw was more innocent and childlike which I preferred. I may be talking crap, of course!

Can you tell I'm a little obsessed with Johanna? :)

But yes I keep getting crazy fleeting thoughts about this production in my head in bad places, like on the train, and then forgetting them by the time I'm able to post them and ask what people think!

[aprinceforwhatever]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 12:42am

WOW! saw the show tonite, unlike anything i've ever seen before! I'm so glad to find an outlet to read opinions and post your own, how lucky! theatre should be talked about, it's so great to see that people care this much!!!

THOUGH, not sure entirely how i feel about the show yet, but definatly a big WOW. i have a lot of thread reading to catch up on, and perhaps a few more visits to the show if my wallet can afford.. it's so different than any other production of Sweeney i've ever seen, and Patti was so much more articulate than i've ever heard her! must sleep on it, will post more later, can't wait to read more spoilers!

[mint0621]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 12:44am

aprince, I totally felt the same way after the show...I couldn't wrap my head around the show, I wasn't sure whether I liked it or not, I know I had just experienced something so unique I didn't know how to handle it.

Just mull it over a few days and let us know what you think I know this thread really helped clear a lot of questions I had after I saw the show...

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 12:51am

It does help to see the show more than once. It's impossible to take it all in the first time. There are a lot of intricacies to the production that really merit repeated viewing.

[miche11exo]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 12:51am

ummmm ok.. soo

sweeney todd<33
sondheim<3333

hmm yeah enough said..healthy obsessions are okay. right? =D

[mint0621]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 1:06am

Broadwaychica, I would love to watch it again...but it really took a lot of energy to watch and to absorb everything, and frankly, I'm not sure if I want to be scared/creeped out like that again! Such a dark show...but I'm so glad I watched it; it's so intricate on many levels.

But I encourage everyone else out there (who aren't so chicken as me!) to watch it many many times!!

(I get very easily scared; I could barely watch "I know what you did last summer")
Updated On: 2/17/06 at 01:06 AM

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 1:09am

That's ok! If it scared you, then on some level, it really got to you!! To experience genuine fear during this show is much of what Sondheim intended when he wrote it!

[aprinceforwhatever]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 2:58pm

i think it's interesting that you found it 'scary'.. i don't think that would be the word i would use to describe it. it was chilling.. i mean even listening to the cd, and how crisp and clear all the vocals are and then seeing how they transfer into the theatre, it sends shivers up your spine.. especially the end right before toby kills sweeney. there were no jump out of your seat 'scary' moments, but the simplicity and crystal clear quality of the show is what makes it resonate so deep. sweeney is intense, it is beautiful, it is honest and simple and sweet.

so.. i think after sleeping on it (not actually sleeping at all is more like it).. i loved the show, i think it is revolutionary, we need more theatre like this, theatre that affects it's observer. theatre that isn't just spectacle. theatre that makes the audience use their brains, use their imaginations and leave the theatre thinking, oh my gosh, i don't know how i feel about that, but, boy that was something else.

i think it also helps that these are some of the best performances i've seen on broadway, not just this season. excluding patti and michael's brilliance in these two roles, the rest of the ensemble is also so committed and talented.

i can't wait to see it second time, i think i may go next week. hopefully i'll be able to pick up on more of the subtle performances of the rest of the cast, musically and physically.

[InTheRed]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 4:30pm

The first time I saw the show, I jumped in my seat and put my hand over my mouth when Sweeney brought out the gun and showed it off.
I jumped really high, actually, which was embarrasing because I was in the f'ing front row. At that point, in that production, I figured anything was possible and was instinctively terrified at the thought of a gun going "Bang!".
(I was so close you see.)
So, I guess they got me!
Updated On: 2/19/06 at 04:30 PM

[mint0621]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 4:58pm

I think there are different kinds of "scary", not necessarily the "jump out of my seat" scary, but more of the fear and tension building of the possibilities of what may happen, which was so scary to me. Chilling, yes. Disturbing, yes. And frankly, Michael Cerveris' makeup and voice freaked me out.

[TargemQ8]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 5:22pm

I will preface this by saying I'm partially playing Devils' advocate, and do not mean to insult anyone. Clearly this production is very popular, and I'm only one dopey woman, This probably my favorite show, one that I've known forwards and backwards since I was a kid.

There is so much I dislike about current interpretation. All of the delicious black humor seems to have been sucked out, and many of the directorial decisions seem to be based more on goth-kid pretension than actually serving the story (and to be fair, I think I would have liked this production a lot more, back when I was a goth kid). The wandering metaphor of the coffin stikes me as silly, just an excuse to have a baby coffin onstage and shock people. Having Pirelli played by a woman is a bold choice, so it should serve a bold purpose, but no one, including Ms. Champlin in a recent interview, seems to have a clue what purpose that is. From a practical standpoint, some of the direction made things confusing. The group I saw it with was not at all familiar with the plot, and there were scenes (The Contest, City On Fire) where they had no idea what was happening.

The primary thing that bothers me is thematic. In this production, Todd does not start out as a merely angry man who is gradually seduced into homicidal mania. The second he comes on stage, it is clear he is already a madman. He physically assaults Lovett within moments of meeting her, and his pure joy in killing seems to be his motivation for slaughter from the start. As the show says regarding revenge, everyone does it. If we can identify and sympathize with Todd at the start, then watch him sink into the extremes that revenge can lead to, we are given a startling picture of out own natures. Now, with Todd a growling, charmless predator from the get go, "Sweeney Todd" regresses to what it started out as; a penny dreadful.

To balance that, I love the actors playing the instruments. The production is bringing success to good old Stephen S. and a bevy of brilliant performers.

Updated On: 2/17/06 at 05:22 PM

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 5:56pm

I'll address your criticisms as best I can:

"All of the delicious black humor seems to have been sucked out"

I really disagree on this point. I find this production to be even more deliciously dark and funny. You didn't find Lupone and Cerveris' "A Little Priest" funny? Not even a little bit? I find that so surprising!! Could you give some specific examples of why you feel this way about the show? Maybe, specific contrasts with previous productions?

"many of the directorial decisions seem to be based more on goth-kid pretension than actually serving the story"

That's a good point, I think. Many of what's on display HAS more to do with achieveing a certain aesthetic sensibility, than to actually contribute to the story. However, I DO feel that the so-called "goth", or german expressionistic elements of this production DO serve to enhance the play's various themes of darkness, revenge, and the dark human condition. In any case, I certainly understand how it can seem pretentious (and I agree, to a point)


"The wandering metaphor of the coffin stikes me as silly, just an excuse to have a baby coffin onstage and shock people."

You're not alone on this one. Even the New York Times' lavish praise of the show mentioned that the white coffin was distracting. I agree to a point; I think the metaphor's a little heavy handed, and at times, it's too visually distracting. But I DO really like the idea of using a small white coffin to represent the infamous barber chair. It fits in with the aesthetic feel of the show, and nicely compliments the other coffin onstage.

"Having Pirelli played by a woman is a bold choice, so it should serve a bold purpose, but no one, including Ms. Champlin in a recent interview, seems to have a clue what purpose that is."

I disagree on this point. I really enjoy the gender reversal. I talked about my interpretation of the Pirelli as a woman choice on a different thread (and most people disagreed with me), but I'll summon it up here: In the traditional representations of the musical, Pirelli drops his fake Italian accent, and adopts his natural Irish tone. There's a comedic effect to this. However, in this production, once Pirelli unmasks, Donna Lynn uses her natural, feminine voice. There's something very seductive about the way she delivers her line after Pirelli has dropped the facade. To me, it suggests some sort of sexual past between she and Mr Todd- a sort of gender/sexual power struggle, if you will. Thus, Pirelli's "blackmailing" of Todd achieves a new level. It's not just malice and greed for its own sake, but strongly suggests revenge, and role reversal (which is even more pronounced given the gender reversal at play). It also suggests the notion that Todd is not simply a wronged man, a victim, looking for revenge. He has also been a victimizer in his past, even before he became a murderer. Also, I like the idea of the ward being a woman, given the different representations of "motherhood" and maternal issues in the play.

"From a practical standpoint, some of the direction made things confusing. The group I saw it with was not at all familiar with the plot, and there were scenes (The Contest, City On Fire) where they had no idea what was happening."

I agree. I know many people who had never seen "Sweeney Todd" before, and were able to understand everything with no problem. But there is some narrative cohesion that's lost in this production. It definitely works better for people who are familiar with the show. But I have no problem with this: How many Shakespearean plays have been done in conceptual ways that require a previous knowledge of the text in order to fully understand it? I think people who have never seen Sweeney Todd won't fully comprehend every element. But those who DO know the story are greatly rewarded.

"The primary thing that bothers me is thematic. In this production, Todd does not start out as a merely angry man who is gradually seduced into homicidal maniac. The second he comes on stage, it is clear he is already a madman. He physically assaults Lovett within moments of meeting her, and his pure joy in killing seems to be his motivation for slaughter from the start. As the show says regarding revenge, everyone does it. If we can identify and sympathize with Todd at the start, then watch him sink into the extremes that revenge can lead to, we are given a startling picture of out own natures. Now, with Todd a growling, charmless predator from the get go, "Sweeney Todd" regresses to what it started out as; a penny dreadful. "

I'm not sure how to respond, because I do see where you're coming from. I think in ANY version of "Sweeney Todd", there is the sense that Todd is in it more for the pleasure of killing, than of pure revenge. But I DO think Cerveris manages to portray his character in a sympathetic light. His Sweeney's a monster, yes. But he's also very vulnerable, very hurt, and very haunted. I don't see him as a growling, charmless predator at all. He's bitterly angry, yes. But like I stated, I DO see a lot of vulnerability. His facial expression when Anthony comes and tells him about Johanna, is simply heartbreaking. He's distraught. Cerveris plays Sweeney almost as a ghostly figure; he's had everything completely stripped away, and is completely hollow, and empty. He's almost like the living dead. Maybe it's just me, but I DO sympathize with his plight. And I think this production, more than any other, DOES show a startling picture of our dark human nature.
Updated On: 2/17/06 at 05:56 PM

[TargemQ8]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 6:56pm

Yay! Intelligent discourse! Though the tone of the rest of the thread has been whipsmart, I was nervous my objections would get me flame-lynched. Huzzah, Chica, huzzah. I know most of these points will be an "Agree to disgree" matter, but thanks for adressing them with an open mind.

I admit my bias against this Priest comes from a general dislike of Lupone. I have always found her very unfunny, so it's probably tainting my objectivity (if there CAN be objectivity about "funny"). Something about the heavy tone of this production made this song lose the light tone of comedic absurdity. It went from the music hall right into the crypt.

The same goes for losing the goofy quality that Johanna and Anthony normally have; she seems so frail and broken (which is beautifully played) that it's hard to laugh at her increasing mania during Kiss Me. Again, I don't feel that this is an invalid directorial decision, but a personal bias. Kiss Me is usually joyous and hilarious, and here it just seemed scary.

Putting the aesthetic above the plot doesn't wash with me, not with a show that has this much depth. Save that sort of silliness for "Lestat".

If the coffin REMAINED a barber chair, it wouldn't have bothered me. Much. Mr. Doyle should pick a metaphor and stick to it.

I hadn't thought about the gender conflict idea with Pirelli. It's an interesting notion. I didn't notice a seductive tone when she dropped the "eye-talian" bit, but in retrospect, it probably was there and I was distracted by the lack of the irish accent. Thinking about it, your idea works (You've made cranky old me have to re-think this one).

Here's the point I have to strenuously take issue with. No production of anything, even Little Red Riding Hood, should assume their audience knows the material. It certainly happens all the time, but that doens't make it valid. With a show like this, which could be said to be the province of auteurs in the past, this goes double. To stay alive, Broadway has the court the dollar of Aunt Betsy from Peoria. This can be done with a jukebox show, or, preferably, with something that is accessable yet high quality, like Piazza. If Betsy sees "Sweeney Todd" and can't figure out what's going on, she'll be less likely to give something else a chance. Other Sondheim shows dealt with known material and events (Assassins, or to return to my Riding Hood example, Into The Woods), and while knowing the stuff beforehand lets you in on some inside jokes, everything is clearly explained. To use your example, I've been involved with theatre all my life, but only recently gave Shakespere a chance. When a see an altered production (gender/sexuality changes, modernising, etc.) the story must remain clear.

Again, thanks for giving my point about Todds descent into madness a chance. I don't think, say, in George Hearns' portrayal, Todd enjoyed the killing till after the Priest scene. His reaction when Lovett suggests he kill Anthony, the man who saved his life, is plainly conflicted horror. Even when Lovett asks him what he's going to do with Pirellis' body, his delivery of the response ("Later on, when it's dark, we'll take him to some secret place and bury him") has a faint sense remorse to it. His only real hunger for killing at the start is for the Judge and Beadle, who raped his wife and drove her to (apparent) suicide. Cerveris (who, by the way, I adore, whatever issues I have with this interpretation) has moments of vulnerablity, but with the way things are directed it seems like it could come from institutional sedation.

It's pathetic how excited I get debating this stuff.

Updated On: 2/17/06 at 06:56 PM

[triplethreat]

Posted: 2/17/06 at 7:17pm

i heard that in the new sweeney todd that you guys are talking about that the actors play there own insturments on stage. is that true?