Philosophical Question about Kiss of the Spider Woman (Possible spoilers!)

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/15/08 at 6:04pm

So after seeing the Signature production for the second time this past weekend (and if anyone here is anywhere near DC or Arlington, go see it before it closes this weekend!), my friends and I began debating some of the many questions the show raises. I'd been pondering one of these questions for years myself, and was quite amused that after several hours, we couldn't come up with a definite answer. So I'm throwing it out here for your opinions!

What are Valentin's feelings for Molina by the end of the show? Friendship? Appreciation? Affection? Something more?

What do y'all think?

[hubee]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 10:40am

I don't know actually but I do urge people in the area to go see it. Saw it this past weekend and it was AMAZING.

http://tapeworthy.blogspot.com/2008/04/making-out-with-signature-theatre-kiss.html

The way I saw their relationship was that it developed into some sort of deep friendship bond/love that was beyond any labels and in a way a means for survival (as in, the yearning for connection and finding it in Molina let Valentin open himself up to them together because it was what he needed/helped him find hope/survive). Uh yeah? no?

Updated On: 4/16/08 at 10:40 AM

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 10:45am

Tesse, I think that is supposed to be left ambiguous, and therefore make you question your preconceived notions about how fixed our sexuality is, and what sexuality is. Is it purely physical, or more emotional?

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 11:07am

Yeah, I'd thought something similar. Actually, this show/story went a long way towards convincing me of the futility of labels for emotions (and, by extension, people). They just become too complex for one simple term.

But I'm still intrigued by different people's perspectives into the motivations of the characters...

[morosco]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 11:15am

I always thought that Valentin's affection for Molina was genuine only to a certain level. Ultimately Valentin seduces Molina in order to get what he needs accomplished on the outside. Am I way off?

Valentin:
He'd do anything for me
I can tell
He'd do anything for me
I know him well
If we touch before he goes
He'll make that call
He'd do anything for me
Anything at all

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 11:16am

Maybe because I'm straight, I never saw Valentin as having ANY feelings for Molina other than as friends. Before he asks Molina to do him a favor in calling Marta, he is using him - plain and simple: "He'd do anything for me, I can tell, he'd do anything for me, I know him well. If we kiss before he goes he'll make that call..." Valentin is thinking of his cause here - there is NOTHING there that suggests anything more. When Molina returns and keeps his word to Valentin, I think Valentin finds a respect for Molina that wasn't there before - he may even regard him as human for the first time really - but I never saw there being anything more than that from Valentin's perspective.

[husk_charmer]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 11:17am

**SPOILER**

morosco-
I felt the same way. I don't think Valentin really cares all that much for Molina until his death. It is then that he realizes what he's done, how Molina really felt, etc. Granted, I think it's more guilt than anything else, but whatevs.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 11:18am

I think that lyric can read in a number of different ways.

Rather than seeing it as a way of getting him to do something through seduction, I felt that Valentin knows that "if we touch..he'll make that call" and feels the weight of Molina's feelings for him. Maybe he's never known anyone who would risk their life just so that Valentin will be affectionate. I felt he was recognizing that Molina loved him, and his ideas about gay men are changing because it's not all just camp, it's about real affection.

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 1:24pm

Since that scene is a combination of two very different scenes from the book, I think it combines the emotions of the two moments, both pitying/affectionate and manipulative. I agree that Valentin only comes to truly appreciate Molina's depths as a human being in the final scene, when he sees how brave Molina can be, but I still don't think the seduction is 100% manipulation.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 1:44pm

Rather than seeing it as a way of getting him to do something through seduction, I felt that Valentin knows that "if we touch..he'll make that call" and feels the weight of Molina's feelings for him.

I agree with this. It certainly depends on how the actor plays it, but considering how homophobic Valentin starts out, he wouldn't have gone so far as to have sex with Molina solely for purposes of manipulation. If he were that obsessed with his cause, he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice the cause for Molina in the end- especially after sacrificing many of his comrades throughout the show, regardless of his respect for them.

Valentin is shown to be affectionate for Molina earlier than when he's about to be killed. Not necessarily "romantic" affection, but definitely different than the relationship of "normal" cell mates. The progression of their relationship reminded me of Beecher and Keller on Oz.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 1:53pm

Valentin is a user, totally dedicated to his cause. Molina is only a pawn in his game. No feelings whatsoever.

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 3:24pm

I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dry, Gothampc. If he were only using Molina throughout, he wouldn't give Molina his blessing to talk at the end, and he wouldn't be "crying out convulsively" (as McNally puts it) when his actions get Molina killed. His emotions and motives are unclear-- probably less clear than Molina's-- and that's what makes the show so interesting to discuss.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 3:37pm

Yeah, Gotham, it's not portrayed that way in the original book eithe,r at all. I mean that's part of the spine of the show, that both characters grow and learn throughout the course of it.

[hubee]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 3:40pm

to continue from Tesse, especially in this Signature production. Ive never seen it before but hearing the recordings I never got that much from it but seeing it, they really played it across the emotions and reasons which is why it worked so powerfully.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 3:41pm

NM

Updated On: 4/17/08 at 03:41 PM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 3:42pm

I definitely think that he's just using him. I think he likes him as a friend, but he still seems to only be thinking of Marta even at the end. His feelings at the end are mainly guilt and probably regret for what he did to Molina.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 4:11pm

Then why didn't he feel that guilty and regretful when the guards brought him his friends that they had caught and tortured? In fact, he acts as though it's "success" if he doesn't even look at them, and brags to Molina about it. If he was just using Molina, then it doesn't make sense to claim he would be more upset about Molina's death than the others'.

Updated On: 4/16/08 at 04:11 PM

[morosco]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 4:29pm

Towards the end of the show Valentin says to Molina:
I want you to promise me something. I want you to promise me you'll never let anyone humiliate you ever again.
It's this line that causes Molina to finally agree to deliver Valentin's message.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 4:39pm

"I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dry, Gothampc."

But we can't really know Valentin because the story is told from Molina's perspective. The Spiderwoman is completely a product of Molina's thought pattern. We only view Valentin through the Molina lens. If the show were called "Kiss of Marta" it would be a different story.

Updated On: 4/16/08 at 04:39 PM

[Tesse]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 4:44pm

Morosco-- I thought it was what happens right after that line that convinces him.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 6:34pm

I saw Signature's production with orangeskittles and we had a similar discussion right after seeing it. "Anything for Him" was my favorite part of the show because it's so tense and ambiguous. I think that Valentin did have genuine feelings for Molina, but perhaps he didn't realize the extent until afterwards. His part of the song reads like someone trying to convince himself that it's only about the errand and the cause when that isn't totally the case. At the very least, there's a fond, more-than-friends relationship that has developed between the two of them by that point. I agree with morosco that Valentin is just realizing the extent of Molina's feelings during the song, and seems sort of awed by that devotion. He's still in love with his ideal of Marta, but he feels something for Molina.

But as I said, what makes it so interesting is the ambiguity, so that scene can be played/interpreted a number of different ways.

[jasonf]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 10:23pm

This isn't going to make me popular on this board, I know, but I've been thinking about this question a lot today, and I REALLY think that you are reading into the play too much if you think that Valentin has ANY sort of sexual or homo-erotic (for lack of a better word) feeling for Molina. There is NOTHING in the play (and I'm going only on that since I haven't seen the movie or read the book) that indicates ANY homosexual leanings for Valentin. The ENTIRE play we're being shown how all he cares about is his cause.

Why, then, would a straight Valentin suddenly "fall" for Molina?
Valentin is NEVER shown to have even so much as a doubt about his sexuality (My First Woman, his love for Marta...). A character who has been set up as such simply doesn't change because it's convenient to the plot unless the writing is really bad.

Let me clarify: a "straight" man can fall for another man, of course it happens, but not so abruptly, and not at the INCREDIBLY convenient time when said man can use the relationship to do something to further the one thing we as an audience have been shown is his singular driving force and primary characteristic. It would be pretty crappy writing to suddenly have Valentin actually develop any feelings for Molina at that time. Only when Molina returns and Valentin sees what he did for him does Valentin even RESPECT him, and maybe consider him a friend. There is simply no WAY that he has developed anything more than platonic feelings for him.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/16/08 at 11:03pm

Jason, with all due respect, I think you have a very narrow view of the continuum of sexuality.


Once Valentin realizes even the possibility that Molina would gladly risk his life for him, it could very easily be an epiphany for him, dramatically convenient, but not unheard of.

Also, your examples of Valentin's unabashed heterosexuality are the perfect foil for what is unsaid, but brewing underneath? Why do you think there is so much detailed exposition of Valentin's sexual burgeoning and lifestyle, because if you read between the lines, you should be picking up that maybe Valentin is protesting too much. ALSO, the original book, by Manuel Puig, is narrated entirely by dialogue. Therefore, the source material about Valentin's sexuality and lifestyle are coming from Valentin's mouth. And I wonder what a person dealing with possible conflicts about their sexuality would do? They would talk about how "straight" they are, but who are they really trying to convince? I believe the term is overcompensation.


And please remember that Latin American fiction often employs Magical Realism, which, according to wikipedia (and other sources) is "is an artistic genre in which magical elements or illogical scenarios appear in an otherwise realistic or even "normal" setting." Magical Realism often presents inexplicable or illogical circumstances and situations. In fact, the very title of the work itself is such an example.




Updated On: 4/16/08 at 11:03 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 12:45am

There is NOTHING in the play (and I'm going only on that since I haven't seen the movie or read the book) that indicates ANY homosexual leanings for Valentin.
There's a difference between "homosexual leanings" and affection. I agree with BK; your view of sexuality is extremely narrow-minded.

The ENTIRE play we're being shown how all he cares about is his cause.
Why, then, would Valentin suddenly give up on his cause so Molina won't be killed?

a "straight" man can fall for another man, of course it happens, but not so abruptly
Valentin and Molina spend months alone together in a confined jail cell with very little outside contact. How is that "abrupt"?


They would talk about how "straight" they are, but who are they really trying to convince? I believe the term is overcompensation.
Re-read jasonf's posts on this thread, heh.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 4/17/08 at 12:47am

Sexual relationships arise between "straight" men in prison on a regular basis. Call it needs fulfillment, call it what you will, but the fact that Valentin is straight does not at all preclude him from having feelings for or being sexually attracted to Molina.