I don't get why when Patti sings, she- Page 4

[broadwayjules]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 11:39am

I'm not the one that brought Linda into this thread, someone just happened to read my signature. For all anyone knows that could mean I'm her lover!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 11:59am

Or her creepy stalker.

[Patti LuPone FANatic]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 1:19pm

JRB... thank you for sharing your knowledge of the intricacies of voice. I'm trying to understand it, as it is very technical. Even so, I'd rather hear your intelligent and mature comments, as opposed to those who THINK they know more than you. When it comes to someone as complicated and fabulous as our Miss Patti, there will always be people with diff points of views. She is who she is. That's all I have to say about that. from RC in Austin, Texas

[Sebastianswain]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 4:57pm

This is asked by someone with no vocal expertise, but, when Patti sometimes vibrates her jaw when she sings, wouldn't it mean she actually is riffing at a ridiculously fast pace rather than producing actual vibrato?

[sondhead]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 5:07pm

"This is asked by someone with no vocal expertise, but, when Patti sometimes vibrates her jaw when she sings, wouldn't it mean she actually is riffing at a ridiculously fast pace rather than producing actual vibrato?"

What's your definition of "riffing"? Based on my understanding of that word, your question makes so sense.

I'll say it again--moving your jaw can't create vibrato. Your jaw has nothing to do with pitch. It can only affect air movement and vowels. The shake in a jaw while singing has nothing to do with anything other than jaw tension. It's exactly like someone said earlier--it's like when you're working out and using a muscle so much that it begins to tremble.

[jrb]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 5:15pm

They aren't linked. A person could riff without any flapping of the jaw (though jaw movement might help to color the notes in a riff). Her jaw is probably moving due to some excess tension. But it really doesn't matter. She's too busy tearing up the stage to give a damn about jaw tension and I'm too busy being amazed to worry about it.

Tension in the jaw is pretty psychosomatic. There is no real use for it other than to relocate useless tension built up when we try to control the voice. Some singers have a lot of tension in their jaw - others furrow their brow - still others hold it in their shoulders. Excess tension is a part of being human...or at least American.

Most singers have some jaw tension to varying degrees. It's kind of inescapable unless you want to stand in front of a mirror and micromanage your performance - in which case you're going to have other performance/technical issues. Patti's just happens to have a clear visual aspect to it.

But no - she isn't riffing. Again, some singers will use the jaw to work through a riff, but it's not helping them technically - just styalistically.

[jrb]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 5:26pm

It's not quite the same thing as when a muscle gets tired.
Jaw tension shows up in some folks as soon as they start to sing, so fatigue doesn't cause it, per se.

Fatigue-induced shaking is an example of tremoring - when one muscle loses strength and fights with another one for dominance.

Fatigue causes the body to allocate effort to a second muscle (ie: the biceps try to give over to the triceps or other less prominent muscles nearby). Since the second muscle isn't designed to handle the things the first muscle does, it tries to pass the stress back over to the first muscle. This battle recurs, causing a shaking. It's like being stuck in between gears. (That is a supper simplified explanation)

This is not what we see in the jaw.

(Edit - text added after)

I have to admit though, that I'm not well-versed in termoring and the muscular system...so please feel free to take contension with this or educate us all if any of you know more about this subject. Thanks!
Updated On: 7/3/08 at 05:26 PM

[Sebastianswain]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 5:53pm

I keep hearing jaw tension, but I really don't think that's the case. It's obvious she can control the vibrato caused by the shaking of her jaw; for example, in "Everything's Coming Up Roses" at the Tonys, she goes from a straight tone to vibrato on the last note, demonstrating her control over her vibrato. What I want to know is is it proper or improper technique...

[Brick]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 6:54pm

She has been studying with Joan Lader for 10 years. If Ms. Lader thought her jaw tension was a major issue, I imagine she could have corrected in 10 years time.

[Jamie Pierce]

Posted: 7/3/08 at 7:09pm

Forget about Patti's vibrato. What I want to know is when did she become so fond of using straight tones? They were all over the place in Gypsy. I'm wondering if it's an acting choice. It's seems to be a new thing for her.

[sondhead]

Posted: 7/4/08 at 1:26am

"I keep hearing jaw tension, but I really don't think that's the case. It's obvious she can control the vibrato caused by the shaking of her jaw; for example, in "Everything's Coming Up Roses" at the Tonys, she goes from a straight tone to vibrato on the last note, demonstrating her control over her vibrato. What I want to know is is it proper or improper technique... "

Oh my gosh

Your jaw can not create vibrato. Your jaw has nothing to do with making pitch. Please think about that for 5 seconds and you will understand how your jaw contributing to pitch designation makes NO sense whatsoever. Just sing a pitch on an "Ah" vowel. Now shake your jaw. Does your pitch change? No. You probably just start singing "Ah-ee-ah-ee-ah-ee-ah-ee-ah"

She may start wobbling her jaw when her vibrato happens, but those two actions are not directly related. It probably just means she's just "falling into" her natural sound (which would contain vibrato) and it is her habit to hold tension in her jaw when she is singing in this way.

[ljay889]

Posted: 7/4/08 at 1:33am

I LOVE when she uses some straight tone in GYPSY. It's perfect on her last note of ROSE'S TURN which leads into her scream.

And I love how she straight tones the last note of 'Everything's Coming Up' then adds the vibrato. At one point she was using vibrato for the entire note, and it wasn't working. She has it perfect now.

[LadyRosecoe]

Posted: 7/4/08 at 1:38am

I think that she can pack more force in the way she sings it currently. At City Center though, I do admit, I was really fond of her singing the "Everything's Coming Up Roses" note entirely in vibrato, something in the way it sounded struck me more than it does now.

[jaso937]

Posted: 7/4/08 at 2:00am

I personally feel, and in my experiences have found that vibrato is a natural thing, though some who dont naturally have vibrato tend to try to create it with the moving of the jaws. I have heard from vocalinstructors that vibrato is caused by the air passing through your vocal chords, i'm not sure if it is the force of the air or what exactly, but I find in myself that vibrato is more natural, for my voice, than a straight tone. As for Patti...on Will and Grace today she was singing "Argentina"and she was creating vibrato without moving her jaw, though you could see the pulsations in her throat. Again...at the Tonys, i only saw her use her jaw as a way to control or alter the vibrato on a high "YOUUUUU" but on other words and notes there was no movement. So i think, for her, its more of a comfort for her to move her jaw. (where's seth rudetsky when you need him...)

[BWayJunkie]

Posted: 7/4/08 at 2:01am

Updated On: 3/17/09 at 02:01 AM

[jaso937]

Posted: 7/4/08 at 2:15am

"Her voice doesn't suck so it's all good"

100% agree

[AHagan]

Posted: 7/8/08 at 2:05am

I think I can help you all out. I am the Aaron Hagan that someone earlier mentioned. The cello analogy is a generic one. Let's talk trumpet. It's one of the most similar in production to the voice. Or a double reed instrument. In both cases the airflow merely causes a pitch, and the vibrato must be added to that situation through an oscillation in either airflow, aperture tension, or a combination of both. These situations are identical to those found in the larynx. The Bernoulli effect (or the Venturi if you like to get even deeper into air vortex theory) sets the repetitive puffs of air into a sequence that's regular enough for us to identify it as pitch. The other factors like speed and pitch variant are "decide-able" given some adeptness. If you can agree what the term "natural" even means there may be some basis for discussion. What is most likely meant is "automatic" or "without conscious effort." This is purely a habituated state. Interestingly, 100% of my clients that present with vocal tremors were taught in their basics that vibrato is automatic, and so it has become hardwired in their nervous system thusly. It's extremely hard to affect any change with these patients because the tremors are generally a cerebellum-related problem, and that part of the brain takes very little input from outside stimulus. So it appears clinically that the initial beliefs about vibratos "naturalness" ultimately become the neurologcal truth FOR THAT PERSON. Lastly, if vibrato were to fall under the heading of "automatic phenomena" then all cultures would present it and there would be a consistency among genetically identical populations in the rate and intensity. But what we actually find is that the vibrato is groupable by musical culture instead. Meaning: what you listen to and therefore mimic most often is what your musculature and nervous system will call "natural." And as far as Patti's jaw shaking goes, it's likely the result of two not-necessarily-related muscle systems pairing neurologically and it's only sometimes getting triggered. Vibrato is a very complex conglomeration of systems, and a very skilled singer can switch from an operatic "vibrato style" to a theatre style or a pop style. The inability to do this is no indication of general skill, but instead merely an indication of time spent investigation the potential to do so.






Updated On: 7/9/08 at 02:05 AM

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 7/8/08 at 2:26am

Patti LuPone is like sushi. You either adore it to no end or you can't stand it. It's just a matter of taste not talent.

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 7/8/08 at 2:49am

Updated On: 5/3/09 at 02:49 AM

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 7/8/08 at 2:52am

Does raw seafood have too much vibrato for your taste?

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 7/8/08 at 3:20am

Updated On: 5/3/09 at 03:20 AM