A White Gay Man in Black Face — Page 2

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#26

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 1:05pm

Amen, lildogs. Large, poor black women do not have the monopoly on having large numbers of illegitmate children and existing on welfare.

*points to own mama'n'em* ALL of my mother's children have different baby-daddies, and I recognize much of my own childhood in Shirley's acts. I also find it absolutely hilarious, most of the time.

I think people who are determined to be offended will be offended by something in everything, no matter what it is, and it is often pointless to try to defend the material.

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#27

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 1:08pm

Why is Borat treated like a revolutionary? His shtick is certainly not original.

#28

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 1:09pm

"Why is Borat treated like a revolutionary? His shtick is certainly not original."

EXACTLY, mejusthavingfun.

"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."

blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

#29

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 1:12pm

I didn't say he was--I meant to point out the humor is very similar...though he's not without his detractors either...obviously...

Jaily's right...my cousin is one of those girls! The people I'VE found that really like Shirley are Southern fags...maybe that's more telling than I realize!

#30

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 1:16pm

This is sickening. I didn't know this kind of thing still happened.

"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." -Keen on Kean
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl

#31

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 1:59pm

I think Shirley is just acting out his dream of being a fat black woman. A dream many fags have had while lip synching to J. Holiday and the Weather Girls.

....but the world goes 'round

#32

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:00pm

Are drag queens in "girl face?"

#33

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:04pm

Of course they are. Otherwise they wouldn't be drag queens.

....but the world goes 'round

#34

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:12pm

For the record, I have never called mejust an "Anti-Semite."
I make it a practice never use the phrase.

I've referred to his "Jew-Hatred," which is not the same thing.

I enjoy a good drag queen, especially a performance artist like Miss Coco Peru or Lypsinka, but I think you're right, lildogs, about Southern gay men and Shirley Q. Liquor. It may indeed be primarily a "Southern thing."

#35

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:17pm

'Amen, lildogs. Large, poor black women do not have the monopoly on having large numbers of illegitmate children and existing on welfare.'

Which, of course, begs the question as to why this white performer would choose to put on black face to portray this character.

As a performer who writes his own material and plays with stereotypes, I would never tell another performer how to craft and present their act. I've taken some sh*t, in my time, for some characters I've presented...and I've looked at the criticism and decided whether or not I felt it was valid and whether or not it was a change I could or should make.

Knipp actually seems quite thoughtful about the reprecussions of, if not his act, then how that act plays to specific audiences and what sort of moral compromises he's willing to make in order to make a living as the character.

"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

#36

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:18pm

an·ti-Sem·ite –noun a person who discriminates against or is prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.

Papa, it's the same. Using a euphemism doesn't let you off the hook. We need a word for people that are quick to call others racists.

#37

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:30pm

"I just can't see how people are offended by someone who clearly means no harm"

Did those folks who used to perform in black-face mean any harm? I don't think so, but that didn't mean it was any less offensive.

"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> “I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>> -whatever2

#38

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:33pm

Laurence Olivier may have donned black makeup in order to play Othello, but nobody accuses him of racism--nor should they--he's trying to accurately portray the character as best he can.

That's not true at all. I hear plenty of criticism of blackface from days gone by. While often blackface in days of yore is sort of written off as in blanket statement of "that's the way it was," it by no means means that it's not something whose larger implication can be ignored.

Also, it should be noted, that Olivier was doing blackface Othhello in the sixties, it's not like he's a contemporary of Knipp's.

RuPaul isn't the only black celeb to defend Shirley--altough why does the black celeb's opinion carry more weight? Isn't that racist in itself?

I brought up RuPaul because that's the example always given, both on his website and in articles about the character. I know people on this board have said they have black friends who think Shirley's a hoot, but none of mine do.

"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey

#39

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:38pm

>>Did those folks who used to perform in black-face mean any harm? I don't think so, but that didn't mean it was any less offensive.

I think the main reason it is so offensive is because it started during slavery. It certainly didn't help promote the idea of equality.

#40

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 2:38pm

I'm not Papa. Papa is Papa. You can call me "Papi," but only in private.

Did those folks who used to perform in black-face mean any harm? I don't think so, but that didn't mean it was any less offensive.

Ironically, many of those who performed in blackface considered themselves progressive at the time. When George Gershwin and Irving Berlin wrote songs like "Swanee" and "Mandy" and "Abraham," they had no idea that the material would ever be considered racist. Performers like Al Jolson and Eddie Cantor were political liberals who believed they were celebrating what was respectfully called at that time "Negro culture."

#41

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:01pm

"That's not true at all. I hear plenty of criticism of blackface from days gone by. While often blackface in days of yore is sort of written off as in blanket statement of "that's the way it was," it by no means means that it's not something whose larger implication can be ignored. "

I have yet to hear anyone denounce OLIVIER from performing OTHELLO, 60s be damned--were things any better in the 60s than in the 30s?

There's also a big difference between a MINSTREL SHOW and an actor playing a black character.

As for the MEN ON FILM skits, I thought they were funny too--I didn't find it offensive because I didn't feel threatened by it. Is it tacky? Sure, but I like tacky.

Nobody is excusing racist blackface minstrelry--it's just that some of us don't think it's a minstrel show at all.

#42

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:04pm

offensive

....but the world goes 'round

Updated On: 5/22/07 at 03:04 PM

#43

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:06pm

In more ways than one

#44

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:08pm

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#45

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:13pm

That's NOT what I thought donkey punch meant

#46

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:16pm

lol! It's not a donkey, darlin', it's a dead horse.

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#47

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:17pm

The approach is valid but Olivier overworks it, for his portrayal appears geared primarily to the task of impersonating a Negro. In his accomplished mimicry ...

"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey

Updated On: 5/22/07 at 03:17 PM

#48

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:22pm

And speaking of dead horses...

Kringas, I said I have never heard Olivier being grilled--didn't say it never happened--and I wouldn't exactly call the review a stinging indictment--more of a casual criticism--and the reviewer concedes that London audiences were rapt by him--so it was hardly a public outrage.

#49

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:22pm

Favoriet line from the review:

"Maggie Smith plays a resolute and poignant Desdemona, though her open, clear-eyed virtue ought to vindicate itself as easily as Iago's obvious machinations condemn him."

#50

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/22/07 at 3:36pm

And speaking of dead horses...

I know. How silly of me to think that we'd still be able to discuss the subject of this thread all the way on page two. Mea culpa!

"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey

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