A White Gay Man in Black Face — Page 6

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#126

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 10:45am

I never said I meant that as a defense (or did I?), just a speculation as to his motivation. I know that if I were making a tremendous amount of money doing something that I personally enjoyed, even though I occasionally questioned the audience response, I would continue to do it.

Maybe I just don't have as pure a soul as some of you other Artistes...and maybe Miss Liquor doesn't, either. Maybe she looooove that money, gurl, and is gon' keep makin' it. I know I would.

Sometimes it's just all about the Benjamins, baby.

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#127

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 10:48am

And put Tabasco(R) sauce on Lemonjello and Oranjello's tounges.

"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

#128

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 10:50am

Better them than Chlamydia-Champagne (that's her baby, you know).

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#129

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 10:53am

'Maybe I just don't have as pure a soul as some of you other Artistes...'

Not one person here has staked that claim. So to make that kind of remark does nothing to further the conversation.

As for the money remark, I apologize if I took it to mean it was a defense. I can certainly agree with your assessment as to motivation. Just so you know, I'm going to leave my remark as it is. I don't like going back and changing stuff (minus spelling errors) and rendering further posts useless. Just know I'm sorry I misconstrued your words.

I think what some of us can't wrap our heads around is the fact that Knipp recognizes that the choice he is making makes him complicit in other's racism, and yet still does it. If he had a 'F*CK 'em' attitude, I would be able to understand that easier.

"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

#130

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:05am

Well, I agree with you on that last point, but I think that's where we're beating our heads against a brick wall. None of us is Mr. Knipp (unless one of us IS, in which case would you PLEASE chime in, darlin'?), and we cannot know precisely WHY he does this for those particular people. My money argument is simply my best guess as to his motivation. I really have no idea why someone would play into someone else's hatred, but then that begs an examination of whether it's actual hatred of blacks on the audience's part, or just how they're socially conditioned, and it's not really meant with malice, just "how they are". (And I'm NOT supporting that view, before anybody clutches their pearls so tight they snap!)

Do I think a lot of Shirley's schtick is kinda racist? Maybe, yeah. But is it THAT much different than, say, Robbie and I standing in a bowling alley bobbing our heads and snapping fingers and saying things like "Mmm, gurl, that's right, honey child sisterfriend, you GO!". I dunno. Is it? Is the fact that we're not doing it dressed in blackface drag making it OK to emulate (mock? Pay homage to?) the speech patterns and physical movements of a certain socioeconomic class of a certain race of female?

Again, I dunno.

But it's funny. And I enjoy it on occasion. Does that make me an evil, hateful racist? I don't personally think so. But maybe I'm wrong.

I often am.

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#131

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:14am

I was actually thinking about the kind of outward mannerisms some of us gay folk take on. ARE they racist? Even though we think it's an homage. I, too, don't know the answer. I do believe putting on blackface certainly takes it to a new level. And then, adding in a party of rich, white people (who probably believe they are in no way racist) makes it rather uncomfortable for me...and Knipp, apparently.

Do I think your racist, Jaily? Yeah. I do. But that's because I think all white people living in America are racist. I certainly am. And I say that not because I think you or I or anyone else here hates black, Asian or Latino people. Or even consciously think we're better than other races. I say it because our dominant culture that runs our government and the images we see has reinforced over and over again the images of good white people. Has it gotten better over the years? Sure. But I think you and I and Kringas and Namo and lil and others who are around the same age simply have been to conditioned to NOT be a part of the systemic racism in this country.

I don't think Knipp should stop his peforming (though a rethink on the private parties which are causing him tsuris might be a good idea). I also think people should not stop watching it. I just think if we watch and if we laugh, we take stock of what that MAY mean to us.

"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

#132

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:27am

Well alright, now. I'll drink to that.

And y'mama'n'em, too.

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#133

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:30am

I'm crackin' open a Colt 45 as I type.

"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

#134

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:35am

Robbie, are you suggesting that we're racists along the lines of enjoying the benefits of "White privilege?" It took me a long time to wrap my mind around that idea, but once I did, I still consider it somewhat different to racism, at least classically speaking. Racism, even when it's not always active, seems to imply activity, of your actions actually promoting this "I'm better by virtue of my skin color" belief. The whole white privilege system seems to stem from the results of racism and prejudice through U.S. history but it's really passive. And how do we combat it? I've lost jobs to people of other races than me, and I didn't go home and call them names in the mirror or plot their downfall...but, when I beat them for jobs (or acting gigs or whatever), is the only way to combat white privilege to turn that job down and tell them to go with the other guy/gal? This is where my dilemma comes in. It's one thing to acknowledge we're "racist" or conspirators in a vast network of benefits, but how can we stop that and are we racist for not actively attempting to reverse the benefits of this privilege in our lives?

And now I realize I've almost completely changed the subject. Sorry about that.

#135

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:55am

Well...I certainly don't have ANY answers. But yes...by the term racist and its application to all white people, that is what I mean. I certainly don't think it's your responsibility to turn down a job because you beat out someone of a different color. And I think the frustrating thing for a lot of people is once you recognize your complicity in the white power structure that exists in this country, it seems WAY TOO BIG for one person (or even a group) to take on.

I personally don't have a problem with affirmative action. At all. I don't have a problem losing out on a job to someone of a different color solely because of their color. Why? Cause I know as a talented, smart white man, I can get A LOT of breaks in this world. I can always find a job. It doesn't really stress me at all.

I'm more concerned that the broken health care and education systems, as well as the 'war on drugs', are major things that help keep the poor (and in this country, a lot of the poor are black) poor and keep people from rising out of poverty and towards the middle class. I mean, look at Lou Dobbs and his 'War on the Middle Class', which is generally all about the brown folk from our southern border.

I wish I had even one answer. One practical thing that one can incorporate into their everyday lives that would in some way open up the financial power structure of this country to those who are most in need of its benefits. Leaving race out of it, I know that my life would be greatly improved if I didn't have to worry about whether or not I can afford to see a doctor if I get sick...even if that means paying more taxes for that benefit. Now I've REALLY gone off topic.

DEATH TO WHITEY.

"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

#136

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:02pm

Girls, girls, girls!! Can't you see this is tearing us apart?!?!?

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#137

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:06pm

Wow, JailyardGuy, you really went out on a limb with that one:

"Do I think a lot of Shirley's schtick is kinda racist? Maybe, yeah."

That's really taking a stand! I think there's room for a few more qualifiers in there. How about "possibly," "somewhat" or "according to some"?

And I don't think this thread is just beating heads against walls, as tazber's experience with this discussion shows.

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

#138

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:15pm

Since when was it my responsibility to "take a stand"? That's exactly how I feel. I think *some* of it is racist, but not all of it is.

And even if I did or did not find any or all of it extremely racist or absolutely hilarious, I can't possibly imagine why you would care so much what I think.

Suzanne: I never use catalogs. I'd rather go in the store and see all the salespeople groveling and sucking up to you. Julia: Pardon me, I never knew they were so solicitous at the K-Mart.

#139

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:33pm

Because I think it's a namby-pamby response that refuses to face head on the fact that Knipp's act is inherently racist.

"Because I like it" is not an answer to "How is this not racist?"

And something's either racist or it's not, "I think *some* of it is racist, but not all of it is," makes no logical sense.

Twitter @NamoInExile Instagram none

#140

re: A White Gay Man in Black Face

Posted: 5/23/07 at 1:26pm

Well, Rob, I'm with you re: affirmative action. It doesn't bother me in terms of getting a job (and, of course, I have a pretty darn good one now so I can't complain there). Another issue I'm curious about, since we have appeared to have gone off into the "racism in general" argument and not just Shirley Q., is along the lines of what you've pointed out. A lot of people are aware of the inherent flaws in the system as it pertains to any non-whites. The issue is, are the programs and policies we have in place (where certain government officials aren't actively trying to repeal them anyway) helping to turn this? Is it something which can be turned?

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