Abortion. Your thoughts?- Page 5

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 3:11pm

Thanks, Jane. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, actually. The main reason for my post was that, while I don't agree with the pro-life stance, I do think that it's a sensitive issue with fair points on either side.

I think that every person should have the right to medical privacy, but I don't think the issue is that the lawmakers are men and thus just don't understand. By this logic, no one could adequately represent anyone that they don't directly empathize with. Perhaps the problem is that the government has any say in private health matters at all, for either men or women.

Jane, I agree with your feelings that in an early stage of pregnancy, the fetus isn't yet considered another life, as it is completely dependent on the mother's body for survival (but even then, there can be arguments made that even a newborn baby is dependent on the mother for survival). I feel that first-term abortions are completely morally sound, but also realize that that's an arbitrary distinction and it's impossible to say that an abortion would be fine one day in the term of pregnancy and objectionable the very next. I suppose we have to create such arbitrary distinctions from a societal standpoint, though.

I have to run to class, although I'd like to write more... the upshot of it is that I agree with you all in terms of the importance of personal choice and not being forced into something by the state. I was mainly hoping to stir up some discussion rather than contribute to the list of pro-choice talking points, because I find some of the pro-life arguments a bit difficult to grapple with myself.

[Jane2]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 3:47pm

Thanks, SS, for understanding my points. I'll just repeat that so many of the points are matters of belief, religious and moral, that we could go on debating forever. At least we had an intelligent debate here (for the most part).

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:27pm

"Pro-Choice is about the choice. It does not mean Pro-Abortion."

Really? What IS the choice, then?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:35pm

A person can be against abortion, but support the freedom of choice.

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:36pm

But the "choice" is whether or not to have an abortion.

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:40pm

Allowing women the right to make a choice about having an abortion does not mean you are telling them they "must have an abortion."

[Rathnait62]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:46pm

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying in the phrase "pro-choice," what does choice mean? It's the choice to have an abortion (the woman's choice). That's all.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:53pm

Rath, in her typically conservative way, has pointed out how the namby-pamby language that people resorted to once the right wing religious zealots declared themselves "pro-life" has made it difficult to articulate what's at stake here.

So I'll say it. Women have the right to get an abortion. To halt a pregnancy. To end it.

And let's not kid ourselves. The "pro-life" people are only pro-birth. The lion's share of them could give a s**t what happens to the fetuses after that.

It's about social control. Plain and simple.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 5:53pm

It means they believe women should have the right to the choice. It has nothing to do with their personal feelings about whether or not they would choose an abortion. Most Pro-Lifers forget this. Being Pro-Choice does not in any way mean that one believes a woman should have an abortion for whatever reason, only that she should have a right to choose to have an abortion, or not to have an abortion. That is what my reversed example was to illustrate.

Updated On: 9/5/06 at 05:53 PM

[aspen]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 7:08pm

On a related issue, the murder of a pregnant woman can be considered a double murder, but abortion is legal. Any thoughts?

I'm glad there are facilities, because there should never be an unborn child that has to suffer a dangerous, dirty, illegal, or late-term abortion. While I'm sure we would all rather see people practice safer and more responsible sexual habits, the world is what it is, and we can only do our best with what we have.

I have an adopted brother. Both of my parents are pro-life, and they've done foster parenting and donated and actually gone out there and DONE SOMETHING in support of their beliefs. I may disagree with them, but I respect them. And if they feel a moral conviction to stand silently outside an abortion clinic and pray for unborn babies, why should anyone try to stop them?

Perhaps people like fflag ought to refrain from calling pro-lifers white trash. It's tasteless and stereotypical, and embodies the very intolerance you are trying to denounce.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 7:19pm

Good for your family.

It is nice to see those who walk the walk, as well as talk the talk.

And, though I do not have my legal books with me, my recollection of Roe is that the court, in dictum in the opinion, actually stated that courts could prohibit abortions during the third trimester, except to save the life and health of the woman. I believe this was the cutoff point where there court, at the time Roe was issued, believed a fetus could become viable as an individual.

And, the issue is again choice - I guess the argument would be for abortion being legal but punishing those who kill a pregnant woman with a charge of double murder/manslaughter goes back to choice and who can control a woman's body. Again, by killing the fetus you are once again taking away the woman's choice - this time to have the child.

I am not sure if there is a cutoff time where the woman has to be pregnant for a certain period of time before a state would pursue murder/manslaughter charges in the death of a fetus, and I also wonder at what point would evidence of a woman's intent to have an abortion be introduced.

None of this is easy, that is part of the problem.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 7:19pm

"On a related issue, the murder of a pregnant woman can be considered a double murder, but abortion is legal. Any thoughts? "

This varies widely from state to state, so it is pretty difficult to discuss. 36 states have fetal homicide laws, but only 15 apply to any age of gestation. Most of the rest apply only if the fetus is at an age of viability (considered around 24 weeks), at which point abortion is not legal ins many states. A few states consider it after 12 weeks, the end of the first term, and abortion laws usually coincide in that state permitting only first-term abortions or contain an exception in the statute specifically for mother conseted abortion. So, legally, the two issues rarely coincide.

Additionally, most the statutes indicate that the result of the death of the child needs to be a result of malicious intent or negligence (i.e. drunk driving) and doesn't qualify under the law if the death is a result of mother's consent.

Updated On: 9/5/06 at 07:19 PM

[aspen]

Posted: 9/5/06 at 7:37pm

"And, the issue is again choice - I guess the argument would be for abortion being legal but punishing those who kill a pregnant woman with a charge of double murder/manslaughter goes back to choice and who can control a woman's body. Again, by killing the fetus you are once again taking away the woman's choice - this time to have the child."

"Additionally, most the statutes indicate that the result of the death of the child needs to be a result of malicious intent or negligence (i.e. drunk driving) and doesn't qualify under the law if the death is a result of mother's consent."

This is where I've been confused. Is the murder of a pregnant woman prosecuted as taking away her choice to have her baby, or is it considered murdering her baby? If the latter, then wouldn't it logically follow that abortion is murder as well? Then, if a mother can give consent to murder an unborn child, why not allow infanticide as well?

"Most of the rest apply only if the fetus is at an age of viability...abortion laws usually coincide in that state permitting only first-term abortions or contain an exception in the statute specifically for mother conseted abortion. So, legally, the two issues rarely coincide."

Okay, this makes more sense. Am I right in thinking viability means the baby is physically developed enough to survive outside the womb?