"At Swim, Two Boys" discussion thread

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 8/31/04 at 12:56pm

Hi everyone, I've created this thread to have a book discussion for Jamie O'Neill's masterpiece, At Swim, Two Boys. Since so many of us (Barees, anyway) have fell in love with this book, I thought it'd be great to have a discussion about it.

For those who have not yet read At Swim, Two Boys, I wholly recommend you do! It's one of the richest and most poetic books I've ever read. Just as some people strive to write the Great American Novel, I think O'Neill has written the Great Gay Novel, the Ulysses of gay literature. This immense and impressive book (a 600 page tome of pure beauty), which took O'Neill ten years to complete, is about two Irish boys who fall in love in 1915-1916, before and during the Easter Uprising in Dublin.

The book is a true tour-de-force of literature: O'Neill cooks a delicious stew of language, history and myth, alluding to everything from Plato's Symposium and Aristophanes' creation myth to Oscar Wilde and queer theory. In telling this devestatingly beautiful love story, O'Neill parallels the love of one's country with loving another man, and the pride and nobility that comes with that love. The prose is lyrical and rich, the characters are memorable and complex, and the epic story is sweeping, yet intimate. I fell completely in love with At Swim, Two Boys, and I think you will, too. It's a mesmerizing, evocative and heartbreaking work - easily one of the most beautiful books I have ever encountered. I feel honoured to have read it.

Discuss!

[lassy]

Posted: 8/31/04 at 1:05pm

I ordered it from my local bookstore then didn't get there in time to pick it up so they sent it back. I reordered it Saturday. Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

[Jimmcf]

Posted: 8/31/04 at 3:05pm

I read it a couple of years ago, and must say I loved it. One of my favorites.

[13]

Posted: 8/31/04 at 4:23pm

Life, work and rehearsals are all conspiring against me, keeping me from finishing this book. (Not to mention trying to keep up with the Bare thread.) AAAARRGGHH!!!!

I'm on page 452. Not much left. Maybe, just maybe I'll finish it tonight.

Updated On: 8/31/04 at 04:23 PM

[CurtainUp2]

Posted: 8/31/04 at 5:10pm

How long do you think it will take for Andrew Lloyd Webber to turn it into a musical? LOL

Updated On: 8/31/04 at 05:10 PM

Posted: 9/1/04 at 8:41am

Life, work and rehearsals are all conspiring against me, keeping me from finishing this book. (Not to mention trying to keep up with the Bare thread.) AAAARRGGHH!!!!

Substitute school for 'rehearsals' and that explains why I'm not done yet. I try to read on the metro but inevitably end up falling asleep, not because of the book...I'm just that tired. I am close though and toroughly enjoying it.

BlueWizard - your intro was very eloquent. When I first started reading the book, it had the same feel of Ulysses. James Joyce was Irish, wasn't he? I have been unable to finish Ulysses as of yet. The prose is too dense, despite being beautifully written. This book has dense prose too, not quite as dense as Ulysses though, so I've had no problem reading it. I do feel I miss some things though, because I don't know alot of history of the period or the terminology used by people then. This is definately a book I will reread after discussing.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 2:18pm

Yes, the beginning is a lot like Ulysses (modernist stream of consciousness), and indeed Ulysses begins at the Forty Foot (a cliffside by the Dublin bay where gentlemen bathe naked), a place that plays a huge role in At Swim, Two Boys.

But after you get past the first 60 pages (admittedly the dryest part of the book), At Swim, Two Boys begins looking less like Ulysses and more like a cross between Angela's Ashes (the lyrical and rich dynamic prose) and a Dickens novel (for its epic sweep and multitude of characters).

About the language: yeah, O'Neill has a lot of fun with his words and allusions. He spent 10 years writing and researching for this novel, and he really packs mythical and historical references in. He even uses words that haven't been used in 300 years: in an interview I read, his favourite line in the book is "by arse or tarse" - the word tarse, meaning penis, hasn't been used in 300 years! - because it makes a great and hilarious rhyme. The book is a real feast of language.

Most gay novels are very modernist in nature (because the idea of innate "sexualities" didn't get formalized until after Oscar Wilde, as per the philosopher Foucault), but O'Neill's writing harks back to older traditions of narrative and literature. That's why I see the book as a great flagpole, claiming for gay literature a place in the English canon (does that make sense? I can't express it very well). That's even one of the major themes in the novel: the see your own sexual identity as a continuance of a larger "nation", the long history and culture of homosexuality, and to stake your claim and asser your presence in the great annals of history.

Updated On: 9/1/04 at 02:18 PM

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 9/1/04 at 2:19pm

See, I couldn't make it past those first 60 pages, they drove me crazy and I stopped. I do intend to go back and try it again at some point though.

[13]

Posted: 9/2/04 at 9:29am

Finally, some time to post.

I wasn't able to get through those first 10 pages the first time I tried to read the book, let alone 60. Thanks to BlueWizard, though, I tried again, and managed to slog my way past the Mr. Mack section, and discovered a book I fell in love with. Once Doyler is introduced, the book really begins to get interesting. Well, not that it isn't interesting before that, but it's so dense and a little confusing in the first section that it's hard to follow. It takes awhile to really get O'Neill's style, I think. Honestly, I believe he could have used a stronger editorial hand, but it's still a magnificent piece of writing. I can't compare it to Ulysses (having never read that book), but I definitely get the comparisons to Angela's Ashes and Dickens.

And now my boss is here, so I have to log off.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 9/3/04 at 12:24am

OK, everyone was excited about having a discussion thread on the book; so now there is one, and no one's posting! Humph!

OK, to start things off (and to bump this up), a simple question: who was your favourite character and why?

Posted: 9/3/04 at 8:56am

OK, everyone was excited about having a discussion thread on the book; so now there is one, and no one's posting! Humph!

Hugs BW! I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I've been super busy with work & I just moved & classes start...eek!! I haven't finished the book yet, but probably will by this weekend, maybe.

As for my favorite character, so far Jim. He is so sweet & genuine, reminds me a lot of Peter. I'm fascinated by MacEmm though. He has changed alot so far and I'm anxious to see where his character ends up.

[Trisky]

Posted: 9/3/04 at 9:45am

Eeeekk! Sorry, BlueWizard, I get preoccupied very quickly. As you know, I made myself cross-eyed finishing the book in record time. It's absolutely a struggle getting through those first 50 pages or so, particularly if you're not entirely familiar with the history of that time period. The language is dense and unfamiliar and Mr. Mack seems to be a very unlikely and unlikeable narrator.

It's such a reward to read the rest of the book once you've gotten past that hurdle because it's unexpected in a way, how much it picks up and how quickly. What I love about the book is its sense of inevitability. As it builds and builds in anticipation, either for their actual swim, their first kiss, the rising tension between Ireland and England, there's this underlying sense that you know what path you're headed down. You know it, you accept it and you let yourself go down it, despite knowing that what awaits you at the end of your journey is a brick wall you'll hurdle yourself into. It's offset by the fact that you're reading about characters who don't know the path they're on, so you have a false sense of there perhaps being a way around it, as if their idealism will somehow perservere against inevitability.

My favorite character in the book would probably have to be Doyler. He's such a mix of intelligence, humor, vulnerability, bravado and innocence. The fact that he loves Jim more than he loves his own convictions or anything else for that matter is wrenching. He, for me, epitomizes the bravery it takes to not only be his own man, but to love someone without reservation and with all parts of you laid on the line.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 9/3/04 at 1:15pm

Yay, discussion! **many hugs**

Trisky, I know exactly what you're talking about. The character in At Swim are being swept into the immense current of history, and the approaching Easter Uprising feels like an upcoming doomsday. Especially for some of the supporting characters, like Aunt Eveline, going down with guns slinging; or Mr. Mack (who I grew to love, because he has such ill-expressed love for his sons), skittering around like a mouse and trying to survive the radical changes happening around him.

I love Doyler and especially Jim (he's so innocent and pure of heart that even MacMurrough falls in love with him), but since those two have already been mentioned, I'll highlight MacMurrough. I find MacMurrough to be the most intriguing character in the book; not just because of the changes he goes through, from cynical pervert to an honourable man with noble ideals (his line, "And I am proud to have loved him," referring to Jim, is one of the book's best moments), but also in the way MacMurrough carries his pain. I love how O'Neill makes him have mental dialogues with his dead lover. These conversations are intellectual, yet they have a fondness to them, and a deep sadness: they reveal MacMurrough's unhealed wounds and his hidden vulnerability. MacMurrough may be arrogant, cynical, self-centered and objectively cold, but he also carries in him a rage and a hot idealistic passion, like a flame encased in ice.

Updated On: 9/3/04 at 01:15 PM

Posted: 9/3/04 at 6:54pm

Wow I think this discussion will be way over my head. Did I mention I was a chemical engineering major in college? I'll try to contribute, but first I MUST FINISH BOOK!!