Brokeback Mountain won and it just seemed so ordinary- Page 9

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:18pm

I don't think that trying to have a family is a conservative or liberal idea. Wanting a family and a partner isn't a political philosoph, it's a human tendency for companionship and the need to continue the "bloodline." Of course, you've every right to find such desires "conservative," just as you have every right to dislike the movie. Or Ang Lee.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:18pm

Jerby,

I'm assuming it's a joke...but if it isn't, I really think that definition of 'conservative' is just a scosche too specialized...know what I mean?

Aping the norm (ie marriage and children) is conservative. And there's really nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make you a bigot. Just as not all conservatives are bigots.

And, for the record, I don't consider myself a 'liberal'. I consider myself a 'progressive'.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:22pm

It was a joke. Sorta.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:24pm

Thanks for clearing it up, Robbie. I can understand that. But I think the gay marriage thing creates something of a quandary since it's the push for something they see as "Conservative" while the actual conservatives consider it a liberal/progressive agenda at odds with what they want.
But I guess they just think we'll be fighting to have 5-member partnerships or something once we score the one-on-one marriage thing.
I, for one, can't find one guy I want to marry, let alone 4 more, but I digress.

[JailyardGuy]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:25pm

I agree with the marriage argument (although I would hardly call it "conservative values", but the human right to happiness), but why must we demonize those who aspire to material successes, as well? There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a Volvo (or a Jag or a Mercedes or a house in Quogue or a chalet in Lucerne or a goddamn private island, for that matter) and to keep more of the money that one works so hard to earn. When I break into the six-figure bracket, I will be DAMNED if I'm not gonna find every way I can to keep every penny I can, husband or no. (Which, frankly, is a concept I have COMPLETELY given up on, but for those of you who haven't, godspeed!)

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:28pm

Oh...I don't know. I think marriage is a religious/political construct to promote stability (and keep the tribe going). I'm not sure how much during history marriage was about 'companionship' before the 20th century. It seems to me it was more about property rights than anything else.

Even though the fight for full marriage rights is progressive, it's progress towards a tradition that is quite old.

And as for THE WEDDING BANQUET and Ang Lee...I like them both. I have no idea how dislike for either has been attributed to me.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:29pm

The Volvo comment was a JOKE. Ha ha. Hee hee.

However, voting for Bush or Santorum or any of these other anti-fag warriors just so you can save money. That's conservative. And revolting.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:31pm

Or just bad judgement.

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:34pm

Don't confuse "conservative" with "traditional." I think wanting a child and a family is a traditional choice, but not a conservative one when you're talking about two men adopting a kid or two lesbians having a child through artificial insemination, which I doubt anyone could call conservative.

And you're right, jaily, wanting nice things doesn't make you conservative, it just seems that those who have those things tend to be.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:34pm

I love you, Namo, but your definitions of conservative and liberal are less objective than invective.

Gay men and lesbians wanting families is simultaneously conservative and radical. My LTR is probably one of the most profoundly radical acts I have ever committed.

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:38pm

Your mini-lesson in marriage has its points--and for the most part you are correct with your interpretation of the historical significance of marriage, but it hasn't been about property rights in quite some time, at least for my grandparents and parents' generations.

I think marriage today is about finding a life companion and starting a family, building a home and being happy. It has become a psychological institution rather than an agricultural one.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:42pm

Until gay parents learn to mentally and physically abuse and disparage their children as effectively as straight parents, true equality will never be achieved.

[joniray]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:42pm

Just interrupting this thread to announce that it looks like Brokeback was the #1 movie at the box office yesterday (Tuesday). What a nice post GG bump!

Whoo hoo!!!

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:46pm

'Favoring traditional views and values'

Part of the definition of 'conservative' as stated on Dictionary.com. I chose my words very carefully.

The problem is, the political atmosphere in the US in general has added such baggage these words, that it ends up being difficult to use them.

Can't we just reclaim some great words? Like WOP?

PS lil...I completely agree with your assessment of what marriage is today. But I think, relatively speaking, taking into account human history, that idea been around a remarkably short time.

Updated On: 1/18/06 at 02:46 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:47pm

It's also had the highest per-screen average for the past few weeks...not too shabby...

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:53pm

i have a question and it may be that i missed something here, but has the word conservative lost any and all meaning outside the political spectrum? i mean does its use in a conversation now immediately mean right vs. left?

i ask because when i read namo's comment, using the word conservative to describe ang lee's work i saw it not as a political definition but rather as a description of a filmmaker whose work while tackling challenging subjects often chose more traditional or "safe" routes in doing so. i just saw the use of the word, like robbie's trying to say now, as not a political term in this case, but as it was used in days gone by, before we had neocons and paleocons and hard core cons, moderate, cautious or restrained.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:54pm

No, Namo was clearly using the term "conservative" in a political sense, since he was referring explicitly to his (I think false) reading of one film, THE ICE STORM.

But can you not see the inherent conservatism just in that description.

But THE WEDDING BANQUET is undeniably Chinese, and the concept of family is at the heart of Chinese culture -- it transcends anything resembling an American conservative or liberal agenda. What progressive about THE WEDDING BANQUET is that they decide to form a household with three parents (the gay couple and the pregnant woman). That's pretty forward-thinking to me.

Updated On: 1/18/06 at 02:54 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:02pm

I'm also unsure of THE ICE STORM with its depiction of adolescent sexuality is conservative in any sense of the word, except perhaps length. Then again, I'm a little preoccupied with length.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:08pm

I have a hard time buying that the mere mention (or exhibition) of teen sexuality automatically makes it 'liberal'...or 'not conservative'. I always interpreted that the sexuality explored by the young people was meant to be seen as a direct result of the sexually adventurous suburbanites' behavior. And I didn't think it was portrayed particularly positively.

Although I think it's a well made film, it's why I didn't like THE ICE STORM all that much. I felt it to be a little judgemental and exceedingly dour.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:09pm

uh, bw, that was robbie. i was referring to namo's comment that brought the word conservative into the debate when he said that ang lee was a "fundamentally conservative" director. and conservative, as defined without the political baggage, is not an american concept nor an agenda of any kind.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:14pm

No, Namo did say he thought THE ICE STORM was conservative because it "was such a repressive pendulum swing against the liberation movements of the '60s." Page 7. (We also had the same argument in another thread.)

Updated On: 1/18/06 at 03:14 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:16pm

It wasn't presented positively...did I indicate otherwise? I felt that the teens, just like the adults, were searching for identity through sex. Ricci with the Nixon mask while Kline and Weaver fumble overhead, the uncertainty and childishness of the key party, Elena's ill-fated fling in the front seat...all involved are inept with themselves and others. I think Lee's work is about the difficulty of human connection and the pain of isolation.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:16pm

I think papa makes a good point--conservative isn't just a political word. But, these discussions have been so political that I think it is an easy mistake if Namo was indeed meaning conservative regarding the artisty.

In filmspeak, the better choice of words might be classicism. Or not.

[vbplayer]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:46pm

"Off topic"........Best thread that I have read in a long time, valid points made by everyone.

[Jane2]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 3:52pm

Nooooo, Roninjoey, I did not just walk in off the street without having heard anything about the film. That would be pretty near impossible in the circles I hang with.

And secondly, I base my opinions upon what I see and feel, NOT hype. What part of my post was not clear? Again, I said I did not feel any chemistry between the two men. I'm far from the only one with this standpoint. Someone posted a link to one of the wellknown critics who made the same statement. I think this was on the other board, though. I did not get that anything was simmering between the two men. I don't care how many looks or nuances between the two men were put in the film, it wasn't effective for ME. It could have been two women, a man and a woman, or two parakeets. The chemistry was not there for me and I don't know why anyone can't respect that.