Brokeback Mountain won and it just seemed so ordinary- Page 8

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:00am

Okay, then take your gloves off.

But you can leave your hat on...

[celticmage2]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:00am

Actually, the christian right sees everything as subversive.

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:00am

Oh my! I'm just going to throw some popcorn on and I'll be right back!

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:02am

pcb, bring me a harp will ya? i need a li'l hair o' the dawg.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:02am

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:03am

That's the best smiley EVER.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:03am

I'll bring the hot melted butter!!

Ooh, this is gon' be more fun than Neely 'n' Helen in the john!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:07am

How about this one?

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:25am

Ya know what, boys?

You're gonna have to wait for the brouhaha. Thing is...I don't really have the energy for this sh*t any more.

If someone needs to be validated by this, or any movie...fine. Who cares? Do I think that's kinda sad. Yeah...a bit. But some view my love of home shows as some faggoty bit of sadness...so different strokes. Whatever we need to do to get through the day, right?

What I don't understand is the vitriol against someone who has remained above the fray, if you will. I just don't get why my objections on the film...both politically and artistically...would cause such tsuris. Perhaps it's because maybe, somewhere, deep inside, those people know that they've swallowed the bullsh*t just hoping that everything will turn out a-ok. Or maybe people simply cannot think for themselves and have to go with the easy route of latching on to other's ideas.

I'm all for optimism and hope. I have lots of it. When I look at my 9 nieces and nephews and realize that I have helped shape their worldview to be more inclusive of all people, I have hope. When I think back on a bartender I knew a college...his name was Guy...and how I was the first gay person he's ever met and that alone shifted his opinion of gay people forever, I feel completely optimistic.

But when someone becomes such a 'Fag Warrior' that reason and thought fly out the window, then my hope decreases. When someone fails to actually have a civil conversation about a f*cking movie, then my optimism dims a bit. But it never goes out. It's gonna take a lot more than harpies who must be right to turn me into a bitter pessimist.

[popcultureboy]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:29am

Interesting point about Fag Warrior-ness. Ironically, some of the anti Brokeback people on here are more deserving of that epithet, in my opinion.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:32am

Well...I'm not in the business of deciding what is appropriate or what isn't for anyone. Whether I agree or disagree with the points or how they are made...it's just not my place.

However...if I know my behavior to be what I (and most) consider respectful and thoughtful and I get attacked or someone tries to humiliate me publicly, then I become concerned.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:35am

I'd have to agree on that one, Poppy.
Most of the discussion and disagreements here have been civil. I've laid out time and time again why the movie resonated for me, why I feel it is important (again, ONLY to me). That it wasn't for you and others is just your own loss - of the $10.50 it cost you to get in and the time you spent in the theatre.
I was bored to tears by Saw II, but some people might have seen some kind of social call-to-arms for the disenfranchised and sick, whom doctors don't have time to get to know.
Whatever floats your boat. But the belittling of opinions and thoughts has definitely come from BOTH sides, especially the anti-BBM side, who have somehow perceived their "Above the cattle-like mindset of the rest of fag-dom" to be the better choice.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:42am

RobbieJ--this "Fag-Warrior" (love that!) apologizes if you felt attacked or humiliated by my posts. I thought we were just playing, but we should always remember that "it's all fun-and-games until someone gets hurt."

If you were hurt by my posts, I apologize for getting carried away and going overboard, and I hope you will accept this apology.

[Jane2]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:43am

How about those who didn't love the film but are not basing their opinions on any political or sexual orientation issue?
I've said this before and since we're all repeating our opinions, I have different reasons for not appreciating the film. I did not feel the chemistry between the two guys. This is nothing that's my fault, I just didn't. So I was surprised when a physical relationship began between them. I thought it came from nowhere. From then on the movie didn't make enough sense to me. So shoot me because I even considered walking out. I didn't, but my mind wandered. I don't want to be criticized for not having feelings, or not being gay friendly (you can pm me if you question my gay affiliations).

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:57am

Your posts regarding my opinions have been calculated in their dismissals. There were plenty of other folks who others have suggested would have been more deserving of your rather ugly comments. Whether I agree with that assesment or not, one thing is absolutely clear. I, in no way, shape or form, deserved your attack.

But you did it because perhaps you thought I was the only one taking it seriously enough to put a great deal of thought into why I didn't respond to movie. And that, I guess, was the real threat. So something had to be done.

Some days, I can be the bigger man. This ain't one of them. So, apology not accepted. Maybe some other time. But not today.

[JailyardGuy]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 11:59am

I've been staying out of this thread thus far, mostly because there's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, but I do want to just put in my two cents and be done with it...

The (original) title of this thread says it all, to me..."Brokeback won and it just seemed so ordinary." Isn't that what the goal has always been? For gays and lesbians to be just...ordinary? For it to be a non-issue, like having blonde hair or brown eyes or being tall...we get one night of that, on one of the biggest, most publicized nights of the year, and all of a sudden it's a problem? It's not enough? The whole WORLD saw "the gay cowboy movie" win several awards, and they saw it treated just like "Titanic" or any other film...isn't that important to you people? I mean, what do you want, a handwritten apology mailed to you from every person on earth who has ever said something homophobic or beat up a gay person? Do we want every single right-wing Baptist and hate-filled extremist on earth to say in their local papers and on national talk shows "I saw Brokeback Mountain, and I never knew you guys had it so rough. From the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry, and as god is my witness, I will never be mean to the gays again!"

I mean, come ON! Can we just stop and think about how things were ten years ago? Twenty years ago? That this film is even HERE, winning major awards, says a LOT, and frankly, what it says is more than good enough for this little faggot. Of course, I have never gone through what some gay people go through, even though I *did* grow up in Hillbilly America, but I made them either love me or be too afraid of me to hurt me (it helps to have a touch of the psychopath in ye in Smalltown, USA ), so I don't suppose I can ever truly understand the viewpoints of those who are bitterly enraged at the hatemongers, having personally experienced it, because I haven't. I also moved to New York City when I was 16 years old, and spent most of my 14th year in Paris, so my experience in life as a gay man has been VERY different than most people my age. I'm all for gay rights, but I'm beginning to be afraid that we're starting to see the emergence of the gay version of the "Angry Black Man", and I have to say that scares me a little.

Can't we all just get along and sing showtunes? :)

[lildogs]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 12:13pm

I thought Brokeback Mountain was a fine literate film with some very strong performances and explored some interesting themes that really apply to anyone, not just 'mos.

I'm an Ang Lee fan and his films have a recurring theme of desperation, isolation, and regret--not the most explosive and dynamic concepts, but thrilling at least, to me.

The doomed lovers (both sets) of "Crouching Tiger" are not so different from Ennis and Jack, or of their respective wives. Or of the couples in The Ice Storm. I'll elaborate if anyone cares.

I read the short story and I doubt if anyone interested in faithfully adapting the story could've been more true to the spirit and tone of the story. You may not LIKE the story, but it's a very honest translation.

The biggest surprise I had reading this thread is discovering what crappy taste in movies so many people I thought I respected have.

Namo--I believe you mentioned Van Sant's "Nicole Kidman" movie-called To Die For...

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 1:11pm

jaily, have you always had this fear of angry black men?

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 1:44pm

Peter, I think you wrote one of the most eloquent posts I've read on BWW.

And BW, I went to bed. Since The Ice Storm I have felt acutely aware that Lee's films are nothing but a reinforcement of basic Hollywood strictures. [...] I believe Lee's choices of subject matter are a reason I think he basically wants to reiterate the same old stuff. Like, for instance, gay guys being miserable and doomed.

Namo, you keep using one film, THE ICE STORM, to make grand generalizations about all of Lee's work. Not once have you mentioned any of his other movies and shown why you think they're "fundamentally conservative." You've taken your views on THE ICE STORM (which, by the way, I think is more an assessment of the Watergate era and suburbia than any sweeping diatribe against the 1960s liberal movements), and have projected them on Lee's entire oeuvre. Weak argument you've got there.

Gay guys being miserable and doomed? Have you seen Ang Lee's THE WEDDING BANQUET?!?! The movie ends with the gay couple deciding to have a child and start a family together in very unusual circumstances, and are blessed by the protagonist's Taiwanese parents. That's as hopeful and joyful an ending as any I've seen in gay cinema.

Updated On: 1/18/06 at 01:44 PM

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 1:44pm

Jane2, you were surprised when a physical relationship began between the two? Did you manage to avoid all the press about the movie and even the poster and just walk in on a whim to a movie with a silly title? I'm kinda nutty because movies rarely surprise me (I can usually predict what will happen in them right down to the beats) but still, you knew that they were going to go into the tent and have sex. I don't see how just the knowledge that they would eventually get it on did not add an air of tension for you.

Speaking as a gay male, I felt that their attraction and chemistry was very palpable from the moment they met. Maybe it wasn't obvious in that sort of meet cute let's glance shyly at one another kind of way, but the whole movie, leading up to the tent, felt very tense, as if there was something in the air that wasn't being talked about. Especially when it was so obvious on Jack's part. Not questioning your gay affiliations, but speaking from my personal world view, I can definitely relate to that whole experience of constantly thinking "Well, are you or aren't you?" deal. I DO agree that it was a boring and inconsistent movie (lots of things are boring and inconsistent) but I felt certain aspects of it were handled very well.

This is why I hate trailers and advertising campaigns. I have a tendency to go to see movies and put up check points at the moments they showed in the trailer, so I end up trying to predict the movie. Certain things like Ennis hugging the shirt make me go "Well duh, the other one is going to die." I hate trailers. I was really excited to see Casanova until the trailer of it I saw at Brokeback Mountain gave away the ENTIRE movie. They even told you how it ended. Why do trailers DO that?! Maybe I don't want to know who he gets with in the end until I get to the end of the movie. Grr.

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. I know why they do that.

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:02pm

'Gay guys being miserable and doomed? Have you seen Ang Lee's THE WEDDING BANQUET?!?! The movie ends with the gay couple deciding to have a child and start a family together in very unusual circumstances, and are blessed by the protagonist's Taiwanese parents. That's as hopeful and joyful an ending as any I've seen in gay cinema.'

But can you not see the inherent conservatism just in that description. Frankly, I'd never given Lee's work much thought as to whether it has a liberal or conservative bent. But when Namo made that remark, the first film I thought of was The Wedding Banquet and how the striving for a heterosexualized relationship (marriage and kids) is a reaching for the 'norm'...or the conservative.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:07pm

Just to toss this out there: do you feel the fight for marriage is just a fight for conservative values for homosexuals then, Robbie?
No agenda to this question, I'm just curious as to how you'd describe that.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:11pm

Amongst the rhetoric being spewed forth by anti-fag warriors, I find nothing conservative about two men wanting to marry and adopt a kid. And, I don't know why aspiring for that is "conservative", which coming out of the mouths of liberals, sounds like a dirty word. And, it so isn't to me.

Gay men wanting to drive volvos and vote for bigot politicians to gain a tax break on their $200,000 incomes--THAT is conservative.

Updated On: 1/18/06 at 02:11 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:15pm

I think as a movement...yes. And please note that I'm not actually judging that. I have no prejudice against the desire for some 'conservative' values.

But, after looking at it as a movement, in general, I can also express to you why I personally want the right to marry.

I'm 31 and have decided to make a life with a wonderful person...someone I trust with my life. Literally. I want the person I choose as a tax-paying American adult to be able to make medical decisions for me if I cannot speak for myself. I would like to be able to visit him in any hospital, should he end up in one. And I certainly want him to have access to any assets I have in the event of my death. Is that conservative? Probably...and I'm ok with that.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/18/06 at 2:16pm

Amen, Jerby. I'll pay what taxes I must to this country if they'll recognize my legal right to be that sort of "conservative."