Gay football player kicked off team for kissing 65 y/o boyfriend

[ljay889]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 12:27am

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-gay-football-player-dismissed-20120913,0,4599002.story?track=rss

Was this posted here yet? Thoughts?

Updated On: 9/16/12 at 12:27 AM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 1:39am

Bit of an age difference there.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 2:54am

Well, I doubt anyone one would have congratulated him for kissing a 65 year old woman, as he seems to think.

However, they seem to have him between a rock and hard place. He lied, and that IS specifically grounds for removal. (According to the article.)

[broadwayboy101]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 12:07pm

He seems quite out of luck because A.) he lied, which is grounds for removal and B.) it seemed, reading from the article, that if there was an issue, it was with the fact that he was kissing a 65-year-old, not the fact that he was kissing a man.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 12:09pm

Replied the 65 year old, "Wait, wait, wait... boyfriend?"

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 1:54pm

LOL @Namo. Are you channeling my Seth Meyers, there?

I don't know what to say about this. I guess if he lied and lying breaks their honor code or whatever, then there's cause to dismiss him. I also agree that I think people would have a raised eyebrow if it were a woman and she was also 65. Implying that it would be all "good for you"s and high-fives if it was a girl he kissed reversed just doens't cut it for me. Not if that "girl" was 65.

I like to believe in the power of love, but there's still a part of me that can't help but feel troubled at the thought of a 65 year old man with an 18 year old. I'd like to think it's not because of some kind of ageism on my part. I was going to say that I'd still feel uncomfortable if the bf was 45, but I think my squickiness is less about the older guy and more about the younger gay. 18 is still really really young. 18 and gay could be even younger, depending on when the kid came out and/or processed his homosexulaity, etc.

I have no real issue with big age differences. When I was younger I got with older guys on occasion and now that I'm older, I'm faced with the prospect of younger guys coming on to me. I tend to remember Dan Savage's campground analogy for older/younger romances (it's fine, but leave the younger person (the "campground") in as good or better condition than how you found him.)

But with 18 and 65 it just feels like the potential for exploitation is dramatically increased. So I don't really know what to think about any of it.



Updated On: 9/16/12 at 01:54 PM

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 3:46pm

I think there's a difference between an age difference and a lifetime difference. When you were nearly fifty years old when your boyfriend was born then yes, I'm going to question everything about the motives of both parties involved.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 7:59pm

I also agree that I think people would have a raised eyebrow if it were a woman and she was also 65.

"Espeak por jourself." -- Juan Carlos Hector Humberto, Madonna boyfriend

[ljay889]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 8:12pm

I usually only go for older, but this age difference skeeves even me out.

[winston89]

Posted: 9/16/12 at 10:32pm

I too will agree that the age freaked me out a litte bit too. It's not because it's a gay couple, it's because the guy's boyfriend is 65 years old.

As for him getting kicked off the team, part of me does feel like it is because he is gay. However, given the situation there is no way to prove that fact, and yes, the player did lie, and if the school is citing that as the reason than that is really hard to argue out of.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 12:45am

How many times does an 18-year-old have to date a 65-year-old before they're considered "boyfriends"?

And doesn't there comes an age, certainly around 58 or 59 (if not a decade or two sooner), when the phrase "boyfriend" becomes silly?

Updated On: 9/17/12 at 12:45 AM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 1:01am

Heh. I know my mom doesn't think people over 40 or so should use "boyfriend." I'm not yet 40 (and have no boyfriend) so I really don't need to worry about, but I've never really been keen on the alternatives. "Partner" just sounds strange to me. It makes me think of a business associate. And "lover" doesn't work for me, either. We need to get Namo to channel Madonna's boyfriend again to see what word Madonna uses.

[thetinymagic2]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 1:07am

Partner reminds me of Roy Rogers.

[Almira]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 1:35am

I usually only go for older, but this age difference skeeves even me out.

Sondheim and Jeff Romley have a similar age gap.

...and I say... I'LL DRINK TO THAT! (only I don't drink)

Updated On: 9/17/12 at 01:35 AM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 11:09am

Well...he didn't actually say '65 year old woman' in the article. He said, 'older woman.' I mean...sure, we could extrapolate...but let's not put words in his mouth.

And I'm a little stunned by the reaction here. It's an adult, consensual relationship. I, personally, wouldn't have dated a 65-year-old man when I was 18...at least I don't think so. I had a short relationship with a 50 year-old man when I was 25, and it was really wonderful...and, frankly, hot. But more than that, it is the acceptance of the reason for dismissal ('he lied') that has raised both of my well-shaped eyebrows.

As gay men, we are taught to lie. No only to avoid disappointment, but, in a lot of cases, as a true survival strategy. We are all liars until, one day, we're not. And even then, we spend a lifetime of trying to gauge how out we want to be in our lives at any given moment. Is this a street I feel safe walking down holding my boyfriend's hand? Or do we just keep a few inches apart and let everyone think we're just friends. We have been brought up by our society, and in most cases, our families, to be liars. To lie about the most important, intimate thing about us. So...sure, 'he lied.' But let's not kid ourselves about what's actually happening here.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 11:53am

A great 10-minute-long TV piece at the link, from SB Nation.

There is much, much more to this story than our knee-jerk-negative reactions (including mine) to the 18-to-65 age difference.



For starters, his father committed suicide when Jamie was 6 years old...







Jamie Kuntz, North Dakota Football Player Kicked Off Team for Being Gay, Talks About Life Since Being Outed: VIDEO

Updated On: 9/17/12 at 11:53 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 12:41pm

Double-generation relationships always creep me out, regardless the sex of the partners involved, but I try not to get too judgy about it. If both parties are happy and it's what they want, fine. There are many types of relationships that aren't my thing (polyamory, open, S&M/B&D, etc) and I just chalk up generational gaps to another relationship style with the exception to obvious manipulation (Anna Nicole Smith) or exploitation (Hugh Hefner) and even then...none of my business.

But I think using the "lie" excuse are cause for dismissal was just an easy out for the coach. If the kid wanted to pursue it, there are probably plenty of cases where they let that rule slide in other instances and they may be very easily proven.

[Kad]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 12:54pm

Have you ever seen Sondheim and Romley? It's very much like an elderly father and concerned son.

[ljay889]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 1:04pm

^ I've seen them at shows and what not, and it's a bit jarring at first.

But since it's Sondheim, I can't help but worry in the back of my head that he's a gold digger.

But I agree with those who just see 18 as being very young. I don't see much of a difference between 18 and say 15/16. Imagine if this 65-year-old was dating a 15-year-old.



Updated On: 9/17/12 at 01:04 PM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 1:10pm

There's a WORLD or difference between a fifteen year old and an eighteen year old. Both in terms of legal issues and in terms of development. Knowing that the responsibilities of adulthood are conferred on you when you turn 18 is actually a strong, motivating factor to view yourself as an adult.

And so what if the young man (in Sondheim's case) is a 'gold digger.' There are many, many reasons people get into relationships. We don't know what goes on between two people...what sort of arrangement is worked out so both people get what they need out of the relationship. If it is between two adults (even with a glaring age difference), I simply don't see it as any of our business.

[Almira]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 1:11pm

Have you ever seen Sondheim and Romley? It's very much like an elderly father and concerned son.

Nope. Can't say that I have.

Elderly father/concerned son or otherwise... I still say:

GOOD FOR THEM!


It is a lovey thing to have a relationship (sex included) with a loving, attractive, and quality man of any (legal) age at any (legal) age.

We all should be so lucky to get love (and sex) in our golden years.

Incidentally.. I tip my finished hat to Sondheim and The Boyfriend, I think both Romley and Kuntz are VERY attractive!

Updated On: 9/17/12 at 01:11 PM

[ljay889]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 2:12pm

There's a WORLD or difference between a fifteen year old and an eighteen year old. Both in terms of legal issues and in terms of development.

Obviously, there's legal differences. I wasn't referring to that. I can just go by own experience. Looking back at 18, I feel like I was a completely different person than I am now (mentally, developmentally, and emotionally.)

Developmentally, the 18-year-old brain is certainly closer to the 15-year-old brain.

According to recent findings, the human brain does not reach full maturity until at least the mid-20s. (See J. Giedd in References.) The specific changes that follow young adulthood are not yet well studied, but it is known that they involve increased myelination and continued adding and pruning of neurons. As a number of researchers have put it, "the rental car companies have it right." The brain isn't fully mature at 16, when we are allowed to drive, or at 18, when we are allowed to vote, or at 21, when we are allowed to drink, but closer to 25, when we are allowed to rent a car.
http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadult/brain.html

As a graduate student in a mental health field, it is commonly taught that the brain doesn't fully develop until the mid-20s.

Updated On: 9/17/12 at 02:12 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 2:42pm

I think it's best to have a conversation about age-disparate relationships without using words like "gold-digger" and "predator," no matter how much we're "creeped" out by the age differences. Jumping to those assumptions really cuts off the conversation, because no one is ever going to defend a gold-digger or a predator.

The more bewildering concept is: What if they're not? What if they not toxic situations in which one party is "using" the other...or both parties are "using" each other?

What if they're healthy, positive, mutually supportive, loving relationships? What if those relationships are as healthy as our own--or more so?

That's the more challenging notion--challenging to each and every one of us whose initial reaction is "eew" or "ick."

In both of these situations, it is very possible that none of the players can be described as predators or gold-diggers. We haven't heard much about the Jamie Kuntz's 65-year-old "boyfriend," but Jamie doesn't really seem like he's gold-digging. And I can't really imagine Stephen Sondheim in the role of predator, and he's way too cynical to be taken advantage by a gold-digger. He'd see right through that and write a song about it.

At any rate, I wish them all well.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 3:12pm

I wish they'd talked to the boyfriend in the video. Maybe he's not speaking because it's thought he'd be too much of a distraction, but I think the mere fact that he's known to be 47 years older than Jamie makes me a distraction anyway.

It's not about "eew" or ick for me. I still just can't feel that the balance of power is way off when there's a 47 year age difference and the younger partner is 18. And I can't be the only person wondering how long they've been together in the first place.

This is a strange and confusing story and I feel sorry for Jamie and his family.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 9/17/12 at 3:35pm

I found that odd in the video as well. No photo, or interview, and it doesn't sound like his family had met the guy (it also strikes me as kinda odd that he'd kiss his boyfriend during a game before coming out to his family, but I know it's more complex than that). I kinda wondered, by the way it wasn't addressed, if the boyfriend was even still in the picture.

I do find the age difference a bit too big. When I was younger, I tended to go for older guys almost exclusively (I'm sure for many reasons, but one was just that I tended to find more guys who liked things I liked like theatre who weren't my age). But I do remember there being some drama with my family when my first boyfriend, when I was 18 (I had just graduated high school) was 31. We only lasted a few months, though we're still friends, but the age difference was an issue for some, mainly because I was seen as too young (honestly, in the relationship I felt older than him--he was pretty emotionally messed up back then). That was a 12 year age difference, I can imagine a lot more issues coming up with a 40 year difference.

Regardless, I do think he was booted for doing something "gay", and that's the issue. So he lied--it was stupid to claim he wasn't kissing some guy when everyone apparently saw it, but it sounds like a kneejerk reaction, and IMHO not remotely something you should get cut from football for doing (it's not like he lied about taking drugs, or I dunno, stealing something from the football team).