Governor Ralph Cramden (aka Chris Christie) to NJ teachers on low pay...- Page 3

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:45pm

look at my post earlier in the thread about why the wage freeze does not work for teachers.

Teachers all across the country are making due with pay freezes, whether they work in your mind or not. My uncle is a head of a department, and still has 2 part time jobs. You go home and grade papers, and he takes papers with him all across the state to referee college lacrosse games 4 times a week. Why should NJ teachers exclusively be exempt from an unfortunate situation that's affecting everyone else in the public and private sectors?


To tell us we make too much is beyond insulting.

I said nothing of the sort. I was addressing the previous claim that because teachers have to pay for higher education, they deserve more salary. As I said, many career paths which require college degrees (and beyond) can make just as little, if not less, than teachers. We do not live in a society where the amount of education is directly proportionate to salary. It's not just teachers who are negatively affected. And I'm sure social workers and public defenders wish they had powerful unions to make a big PR stink over every possibility of a paycut.

Life is tough all over, as my grandfather (a former teacher) used to say.

Updated On: 5/31/10 at 11:45 PM

[AC126748]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 8:50am

You want a difficult job? Try waiting tables. Those people work hard for very little money and no union behind them.

I put myself through college/grad school waiting tables. It is hard work, but you make excellent money, especially if you work in a big restaurant market (major cities/resort areas). I know professional servers in NYC who clear eighty grand a year--fifteen grand more than my father (who has a BA and MA from The University of Notre Dame) ever made teaching. And food servers/bartenders make the majority of their money in cash, off the books, through tips. They end up taking home 90% of the money they make. And they leave their jobs at the door as soon as they leave the restaurant--they don't have to go home and write lesson plans or grade papers after working a full nine hour day.

As Jason said, no real education is required to wait tables. I have many good friends who do it who only have a high school diploma. I actually know a handful of people with teaching degrees who chose to wait tables and bartend because they wanted the cash money and the freedom that that industry provides. It's an extremely lucrative business that doesn't require a lot of skill.

Like I said earlier, many of the high school teachers I know retain their serving and bartending jobs during the summer to make money while they're not being paid for the end of June through the middle of September.

Updated On: 5/31/10 at 08:50 AM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 12:33pm

"Oh please. My current salary is less than my annual college tuition was. I know someone with a masters in social work who makes less than $30,000 a year- and that's an average salary for the field. Why should this be taken into special consideration for teachers if the rest of us get screwed over just as much? "

So you arguement is that because social workers get crappy pay teachers should too? It sounds to me that you and your social worker friend deserve better pay, not that teachers should be making less.
Updated On: 5/31/10 at 12:33 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 12:40pm

Here's the disconnect. I don't think anyone is saying that teachers "should" make less money. I think the issue is whether teachers, as opposed to just about every other public employee, should be exempt for a pay freeze when there are similar freezes or staffing cuts going on across the board.

[violet72]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 8:16pm

our neighboring district took a wage freeze then their budget got voted down...now they had to lay off more people...btw the money he said that would go to districts who took a pay freeze hasn't happened.

I work 3 jobs to pay my bills...I just want to teach, leave my pay and pension alone and I will be fine

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 10:26pm

"Oh please. My current salary is less than my annual college tuition was. I know someone with a masters in social work who makes less than $30,000 a year- and that's an average salary for the field. Why should this be taken into special consideration for teachers if the rest of us get screwed over just as much? "

I see this argument frequently, and I never understand it. The "I'm getting screwed and so should you" rationalization. It's the mentality of crabs in a bucket. If you have one crab in a bucket, you better watch out, because it will likely get out, but if you have more than one, no worries. The other crabs will be sure to pull it back down.

Teachers shouldn't be making less - the social workers and others should be making more. This is why we're having trouble keeping good teachers and why Johnny can't read.

" I'm sure social workers and public defenders wish they had powerful unions to make a big PR stink over every possibility of a paycut. "

Good point. They should. Btw, I am not a teacher, not related to any teachers and hated school. Teachers deserve every damn dime they get and more. This is a no-brainer.
Updated On: 6/1/10 at 10:26 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 10:40pm

ghostlight, did you read YWIW's last post? That was my point that went soaring over your head.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 5/31/10 at 10:56pm

Yes, I've read this whole thread, 'skittles, and no need be offensive. I get your point, I just don't agree with it. I don't think many public workers should be taking the pay freezes, either, especially not teachers and social workers. Public officials and their minions, on the other hand...

I also don't think we should be cutting down library hours, cutting back on arts in the schools, or closing Federal parks. Take the money from the excesses of the military, where they pay obscene amounts of money for equipment. Cut out the jobs that really are unnecessary, like Christie's assistants - that's where the fat is. Do you see Christie taking a pay freeze? Or making any personal sacrifices at all?

Find the money somewhere else.


Updated On: 5/31/10 at 10:56 PM

[violet72]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 7:43am

now he wants to cut the property tax rebate....this will hurt many senior citizens...so who is next on his scapegoat list? BTW I will take a pay cut when he does...he won't turn in his income tax info because his wife made $1.3 million dollars last year and he is still taking his salary...say what you want about Corizine but he didnt take his salary.
seniors

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 1:27pm

I get your point, I just don't agree with it. I don't think many public workers should be taking the pay freezes, either, especially not teachers and social workers.

No, you don't get it, because that's what my point was. No one SHOULD be getting pay freezes, but they are, and they're taking it without posting dozens of threads all over the off-topic board calling their governor names. Certain posters on this thread think that they're above what everyone else is going through. I'm not saying teachers should earn less, I'm saying that NJ teachers should be mindful of the fact that they're in a much more powerful position than other public employees.

Their refusals for a pay freeze just means that money is going to be taken from other state entities, like the libraries and the parks instead, as you said, and since their budgets are already always stretched thin to accommodate the schools, that means much more dramatic cuts and job losses than the teachers are at risk for. I don't want teachers to suffer because I am, I want some of the NJ teachers here to realize they're not the only ones set to lose in the next fiscal year. Because based on the attitude in some of the posts I've read here over the past few months, some posters would consider it a victory if the governor bowed to all the school funding demands, even if it meant every library in the state had close to accommodate them.

Updated On: 6/1/10 at 01:27 PM

[violet72]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 1:38pm

Interesting article!!!



Jim Gearhart, 101.5 FM's legendary morning man and long-time observer of the Jersey political landscape, has been one of Gov. Christie's biggest cheerleaders. No more. While Gearhart didn't join harsh critics who call the governor a bully masquerading as a conservative, Gearhart says Christie talked a good game for months then threw in the towel in the battle with the NJEA, leaving those who supported Christie out on a limb all by themselves. "The clash of the titans is over, apparently,"
Gearhart told his huge audience. "Apparently the administration hasbacked down from its policies. It was disappointing to say the least. I won't sit here and try to support the policies of an administration that has turned its back on its policies."At issue is an application for a federal grant for N.J. education worth $400 million if the state is successful and the administration thinks it has a better chance at
success if the union signs off on it. It's an Obama program called "Race To The Top".

The grant application was opposed by the NJEA in January so the statemissed the deadline. The next deadline is June 1. I've looked over several analyses of the proposal. Here are some key parts:

Merit Pay: The feds say they want a plan for merit pay. The
Christie/NJEA merit pay proposal would give bonuses to schools that help disadvantaged kids close the achievement gap. The schools could volunteer for a pilot program in which half the bonus would go for school-wide improvements and the other half would go to staff to share or use for the school.

(The union has been against individual bonuses or merit pay because it
contends everyone is equal. Christie had given the impression he was for
merit pay for individuals.)

Tenure: Christie's education commissioner, Bret Schundler, wanted
teachers to lose tenure after three years of ineffective reviews. But
the union contended that state law allows district to pursue revoking
tenure after two years.

(True enough, but the union has managed to make it so expensive and
time-consuming it hardly ever happens. It has been estimated it can cost
a school district $100,000 to fire an incompetent teacher.)

Teacher Evaluations: Under the Chgristie/NJEA plan a committee made up
of educators, including representatives of the NJEA and the N.J. School
Boards Association will meet for at least a year to determine the best
way to do this.

(Why would something like that take a year?)

Seniority: The state wanted cuts to be based partly on an employee's
ability. Christie backed off the plan, so seniority is the only factor
determining who keeps the job.

(The union always insisted on seniority being the determining factor,
it's a union thing. It means many younger, and possibly more able
teachers, will lose their jobs.)

The Record of Bergen County reports local union leaders have not been
briefed on the subject, but Joe Cheff in Passaic County told the paper,
"The NJEA has a team of very bright minds. If they're satisfied then I
would be more apt to go along with it."

"The union won on all counts," an obviously frustrated Gearhart said.
"You feel like you have been made a total fool of. It's embarrassing."

Gearhart is not alone in losing faith in Christie. A teacher who voted
to take the one-year pay freeze to try to save the jobs of some
colleagues told me in an e-mail, "... I guess after listening to Jim
this morning all of us that gave up raises and benefits were the losers.
Now we need the media to let everyone know that things are back to
normal and they can now give us our raises back. Disgusted."

Some say having the two sides get together after months of fighting is a
positive thing, others say Christie blinked when push came to shove and
he really isn't the champion of the taxpayer he claims to be.

Many will look at everything he says differently from now on. This could
wind up be a double whammy for Christie. It provides an opportunity for
the Obama administration to stick it to Republican Christie and weaken
his support by denying the state the $400 million. Then he loses twice.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 2:02pm

"No one SHOULD be getting pay freezes, but they are, and they're taking it without posting dozens of threads all over the off-topic board calling their governor names. Certain posters on this thread think that they're above what everyone else is going through. I'm not saying teachers should earn less, I'm saying that NJ teachers should be mindful of the fact that they're in a much more powerful position than other public employees. "

The difference between our stances (and thanks for not being insulting this time) is that I don't think any public worker should be taking pay freezes lying down (okay, maybe the Post office workers). Someone needs to stand up and say, "Enough, already!". The teachers are in a more powerful position? Good. Yay for them for standing up and speaking the truth. I don't think any of these posters you speak of think they're above it (and btw, I don't know any of them, even on this board), I think they're just taking a stand, as more should.

"Their refusals for a pay freeze just means that money is going to be taken from other state entities, like the libraries and the parks instead, as you said, and since their budgets are already always stretched thin to accommodate the schools, that means much more dramatic cuts and job losses than the teachers are at risk for."

I thought I made it clear that that is not where the money should be taken from. There are other, better places to trim the fat from. It just doesn't suit the Gov. to take it from those places. Besides, money is being taken from the arts, parks, and libraries already, because they have no unions to speak for them. Don't lay the blame for that at the feet of our teachers.

Personally, I think bitching about their situation is a perfect use for this off-topic board - much better than a lot of the useless crap posted here. I do agree with you that I'd like to see the name-calling dialed down or eliminated outright. I understand their frustration, but it weakens their point.
Updated On: 6/1/10 at 02:02 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 3:07pm

In all honesty, to some extent, teachers ARE above others. Some of the other jobs being considered do not require the education and continuing education MANDATED that teachers have.

The simple fact is, jobs are given values based on societal impression. Jobs such as police, firefighters, teachers, nurses - these are essential jobs that happen to be mandated by the government, but can you really imagine society functioning without them? There are MANY jobs where the contribution to society is far less than those listed above (some that require less education) that make far more than those listed above. I don't begrudge people making what is fair -- all I'm saying is if you compare the worth of those above to some of those jobs in terms of importance, the balance of money is way out of whack.

Should those people listed lie down and say "we're not worth every penny we get and more?" Of course we shouldn't! Why should capitalist tendencies only apply to those directly involved in making money? Those employees are dependent on tax dollars because of the way society is set up because honestly, how do you measure the worth of a cop or nurse? How many lives they save? At the same time, imagine society without these people?

Teachers in other countries are looked at with deference. Here, teachers are often looked on as people who failed at other careers. It's simply not so, and teachers are simply trying to get what's their due.

The private sector didn't care about us when times were good - so now that times are bad for them, we should be "mindful" of their woes?

Updated On: 6/1/10 at 03:07 PM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 3:30pm

"In all honesty, to some extent, teachers ARE above others."
Wrong. Everyone's job is important to them and everyone deserves to be paid a fair wage. Of course comparing the work of teachers to a waiter/waitress is idiotic....but idiots will be idiots.
The bigger issue here is what effects Christie will have on education in NJ. He cuts have been severe and are taking away much needed resources to kids. Again, NJ Public Schools are consistently ranked top in the nation. I have no doubt that the cuts he has imposed will change this. Not to mention that all the reform that Christie is on board for has been proven ineffective.
And now Schundler is saying is for school vouchers, but private schools that get state aid should not be held to to same standards as public schools.
And this is where the NJEA fails. Instead of making this about kids, and the way public education in the state will suffer (and believe me it will) they have made it about teacher salaries.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 3:51pm

In all honesty, to some extent, teachers ARE above others.

So, someone who has a college education is ABOVE someone who doesn't? Lovely.

Teachers in other countries are looked at with deference. Here, teachers are often looked on as people who failed at other careers. It's simply not so, and teachers are simply trying to get what's their due.

But if everyone is having to tighten their belts, then is it their DUE? Teachers in NJ made a good wage. I don't believe it's unfair to ask them to take a wage freeze. No one is taking current income away. Yes, contractually, they are supposed to get a raise, but the national economy was in the toilet. It effects everyone. How can NJ teachers expect to keep getting raises when there are so many losing jobs and when the state economy is still in the crapper? If teachers refuse to take the freeze then cuts have to come from elsewhere. Christie is a pompous homophobic windbag, but in this situation, I don't think he's acting unfairly.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 3:58pm

I don't understand why everyone is so fixated on the wage freeze. The cuts made by Christie was so drastic that wage freezes wouldn't matter. Most of the districts that agreed to a wage freeze (I believe there were 21) STILL laid people off. And how come Christie hasn't called on the administrators to take a wage freeze?
It's not teachers being laid off..it's programs being cut, pre-K, reading programs, tutoring, math and science programs, free lunches, etc etc etc. Wage freezes are just a drop in the bucket.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 3:58pm

I don't understand why everyone is so fixated on the wage freeze. The cuts made by Christie was so drastic that wage freezes wouldn't matter. Most of the districts that agreed to a wage freeze (I believe there were 21) STILL laid people off. And how come Christie hasn't called on the administrators to take a wage freeze?
It's not teachers being laid off..it's programs being cut, pre-K, reading programs, tutoring, math and science programs, free lunches, etc etc etc. Wage freezes are just a drop in the bucket.

[jasonf]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:12pm

So perhaps "ABOVE" was the wrong choice of words. But deserving of a better salary than someone who didn't go to college? Hell yes.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:15pm

Then perhaps you should apply that degree to another field if you think you aren't being paid enough for the education you chose.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:16pm

Funny, I thought the word perfectly displayed your attitude, and why some of us have an issue with it.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:20pm

That's what this thread was about, the wage freeze and "low pay." This was about that idiotic comment Christie made to the teacher complaining about the drop in the bucket. People are fixated because the teacher unions ended up looking like asses for refusing the freezes in most places. The administrative costs are out of control and THAT is what's draining the budget. I don't want to see good administrators lose their jobs either, but there are some elementary schools with four principals and the amount of money they make just seems silly. They could cut one crappy principal and keep 2 teachers in some situations.

And also, special education is a big drain, too. New Jersey has one of the best special education systems in the country and people move there for the services. The percentage of autism is higher in NJ than anywhere else in the country, only partly because of people moving. These kids have to be in the system until 21. I know a child who had to be sent to a live in hospital in Boston for five months. His mother had to be housed nearby to be there for daily behavior therapy. The cost of the care was in the millions and the school system had to cover a big portion of the bill. If a child can't be handled in a certain school district, they have to pay another system to work with him and transportation back and forth. If the kid requires a full time live in situation, that's on the district, too. I don't know if the answer lies in more federal funding, but you can't cut the services these kids need. Something just has to give somewhere.

[violet72]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:23pm

The "raises" that everyone wants to freeze is 2%....that is $30 a paycheck...it is a cost of living raise....you want to go after someone who makes alot of money look at administrators who are not part of NJEA

I went into teaching knowing I would not make alot of money but I thought my pension would be set...a pension that the state hasn't paid into for 15 years...I can deal with my salary being what it is but when you mess with my pension you mess with my future

Also if we took a wage freeze what would stop them from asking for a wage freeze again next year?

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:24pm

"In all honesty, to some extent, teachers ARE above others".

So, someone who has a college education is ABOVE someone who doesn't? Lovely.

Not at all what jasonf said, jerseygirl. eta: okay, so s/he said it while I was writing, but still, that is a true statement, to me. I'll grant that s/he choose a really poor way to put it, but a good teacher may not necessarily a good writer make. A good teacher, fireman, policeman, doctor, nurse, paramedic, even to some degree our Parks people...their jobs are more important to our children, our protection, our health, our future than other occupations are, and already they get nowhere near compensated for the sacrifice they're making to choose their careers. Yes, I think those professions should be ranked above others, both in respect and pay scale - and yes, I get that they chose their careers, knowing what it meant, but they heeded the call. They made that sacrifice, but now they are being asked for even more.

This is a small cost of living "raise" encompassing future years the teachers have already negotiated. Christie isn't asking for a wage freeze. As others have said, he's asking for a pay cut. Are you telling me you'd be okay right now with someone telling you that for the next two or three years, you"re not even going to make the same amount of money you made in the past?

"It effects everyone."

A good teacher taught me that you probably meant "It affects everyone" - and yes, it does, just as the decrease in our quality of teachers will affect everyone as good people will cease to be attracted to the field. They aren't being offered incentives other than their own desire to teach our children and better our future. Less qualified teachers will ultimately have a negative effect on our country.

I reiterate that I feel the same of fireman, policemen, social workers, etc. It is failure to these people on this level that we fail our society.

Updated On: 6/1/10 at 04:24 PM

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:30pm

So perhaps "ABOVE" was the wrong choice of words. But deserving of a better salary than someone who didn't go to college? Hell yes.

Can't help but disagree with you again. You DESERVE more money because you had the privilege of going to college? I had to bust my ass to get through college while working full time, but I was lucky. I didn't have a family to support at 18 like some of my friends did. And no, I don't mean they made the choice to have kids, I mean that life threw them a curve ball and they had to support a parent at 18. They never had the opportunity to go to college. You are in no way more deserving than them.

And ghostlight, I completely understand what Jason is TRYING to say. The point is that over and over his way of phrasing it is ridiculous and adding fuel to the growing fire of attitudes toward the general population of teachers. As always, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. The ones making goofy comments are being used as an example of all the teachers, which couldn't be further from the case. As an educator, one should be more aware of how something will be taken.

Updated On: 6/1/10 at 04:30 PM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 6/1/10 at 4:35pm

JG2 - silly you. Didn't you know, a college education means you are entitled to earn more money, regardless of your qualifications or actual skills?