Governor Ralph Cramden (aka Chris Christie) to NJ teachers on low pay...- Page 2

[violet72]

Posted: 5/28/10 at 11:05pm

Thats when I turned it off...I couldn't take it...but then I turned it back on and heard him answer a question about after school and before school programs being cut and he said that districts can get philanthropic donations...then I turned it off again.....sure donations will take care of all the cuts and unicorns and rainbows are going to fly out of my butt

I also can't believe no one is talking about the cuts he made to ARC and other places that take care of disabled people. Also he cut money to homeless shelters and he cut 100% of the parks budget...Trenton Barracks is closing which is sad

[adamgreer]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 10:31am

Here's what he doesn't seem to get...

He's asked for a wage freeze, which in and of itself would not be a horrible thing. But then, on top of that, he's asking teachers to pay significantly more for their health benefits. Again, in and of itself, not a terrible thing. However, when you combine the two, you have essentially given the teachers a pay cut, not a pay raise. We're paying more for insurance, and that's not being offset by a raise in salary, ergo, you're asking them to take a pay cut.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 2:22pm

"RIDICULOUSLY top heavy administrations"

I'd say he's a little more bottom heavy.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 3:00pm

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not a teacher and I no longer live in Jersey so I don't really have a vested interest in the budget. AND some of my closest friends and family members are educators and I owe them more than I could ever repay, so I DO respect the profession immensely. That said, comparing the average income teachers make in New Jersey to some other states is pretty baffling. I have heard people say that asking teachers to take a pay freeze or to not get a raise is a show of disrespect. There are states like Vermont where teachers start off making $25k per year. Yes, the cost of living is higher in Jersey (why the HELL are houses SO expensive there?!), but it's hard to get behind people demanding more money when they are in the top the three highest paid states in the country. I am sure I would feel different if I had gone into education.

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 6:12pm

And JerseyGirl - you hit the nail on the head. Yes, we might be amongst the highest paid in the country, but the cost of living in NJ is also either the second or third highest in the country (behind, I believe, NY and CT). Similarly, NJ has one of the top ranked public school systems in the country - there is absolutely a corollary between the teacher salary and quality of education. To expect quality to stay the same without paying for it is a ridiculous pipe dream, and Christie knows it. His goal is to tear apart the public system and privatize education, thus making it impossible for any lower and most middle class kids to get a quality education any longer.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 6:51pm

There may be a connection between the level of education you get and the pay in some districts and some areas, but not all. I have dealt with a lot of crappy educators who don't know their asses from their elbows and don't care to learn anything new all over the state of New Jersey. I was involved with a teacher in service in a well populated district. We were teaching the most scientifically proven techniques for identifying and working with the high functioning autism/aspergers population, an often undiagnosed problem for many kids. We had teachers walk in, grab a cup of coffee, sit as far in the back as possible and open newspapers and magazines. Some had full volume conversations while our award winning BCBA presented the material. When we asked them to stop talking, they pulled out their phones and started texting, with sound. It was the most disrespectful group I have ever worked with. This was a mix of middle school and elementary teachers, the most critical time for these kids. I only deal one on one with special education, but I felt like they should have hacked a few more of the seasoned teachers and let the younger ones who have learned new teaching styles take over. Actually, the bigger problem is the administrators. Many of them would rather pay to ship a kid out of district than to train their staff to deal with them. I am thankful evey day that I no longer have to take the calls of crying parents exhausted from having to fight for the educational needs of their special education children. Paying the teachers more won't fix that.

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 7:09pm

If they canned some high paid administrators and redistributed it to teachers, the problem would be solved. Christie would still be a douche.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 7:54pm

Let me see if I have this right:

For approximately $60,000, a worker shows up around 8:15, teaches for awhile, then hands the class over to the art teacher for 1 hour, then comes back teaches awhile longer, then hands the kids over to the gym teacher for 1 hour, teaches awhile longer, then lets the kids go to lunch for 1 hour, then teaches awhile, then hands the kids over to the music teacher for 1 hour. 3:00 rolls around and the teacher gets to pack up and go home (no surprises which require teacher to stay late). On top of that, teacher gets June, July and August off.

Where do I sign up?

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 8:53pm

You neglect to mention all the teachers who work after school on lesson plans, extra help for their students, the years in college needed & the money they paid. What about middle school & high school teachers who teach ALL day some a variety of different classes? You act as though teachers get paid in the summer, while the reality is that many teachers get OTHER jobs in the summer.

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 8:54pm

Well, the good news is, Goth, you started with "Let me get this right?" because at least you admit there that there's a possibility that you're very wrong.

Here's my school day.
Get in at 7:30 - the kids come in at 8:15. I usually take the first half hour of that making copies, rearranging and cleaning my room from whatever was in there the night before (which ranges from a couple of people with piano lessons to other classes that the school rents out the room to), checking email -- and probably going to the bathroom since I can't go again for another three hours.
I then have a 10 minute homeroom where I'm taking attendance, passing out forms, all while herding kids in the hallway.
I then teach for two and a quarter hours.
Next I have prep -- grading papers, planning lessons, meeting with parents/calling parents/emailing parents, making copies, meeting with colleagues about lessons, meeting with supervisors or counselors about kids.
I then have lunch for TWENTY FIVE minutes, many periods of which are spent sitting with kids either helping them with classwork or planning a unit activity.
I then teach again for another two hours.
I then have a unit meeting wherein we plan lessons, discuss student needs, work out special ed. problems, schedule activities for the kids, meet with administrators (note, this is different from supervisors listed above, or take care of other mandated paper-work we as a group need to.
I then run a study hall for forty minutes where I help kids with homework not just for my class but all classes, as well as keep track of the 28 students assigned to me each with a separate agenda/need to go somewhere.
Now it's 3:10, "the end of the day" and I may have a club to run, committee meeting to serve on, department meeting, or faculty meeting to attend. If I don't happen to have any of those, I usually will spend 15-20 minutes straightening my room, go home, and spend at LEAST another hour or two (which is done regardless of if I have any of those other things) grading, planning, or making up handouts.

So Goth, you were PRETTY close...

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 9:19pm

Goth, your post was laughable and so incredibly insulting. Clearly, you've never been a teacher and never known one. My sister is a grade school teacher and her days never end. If you worked out her hourly wage it would be so low you would be outraged. Not to mention, people like my sister, as well as other teachers are usually very civic minded and help out a lot with other programs for the community and the kids all on their own time and dime.

Plus, she does not get paid in the summer and unless she gets a job at a Sylvan Learning Center, she is pretty broke. Sign you up? Sure thing.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 9:32pm

the years in college needed & the money they paid.

Oh please. My current salary is less than my annual college tuition was. I know someone with a masters in social work who makes less than $30,000 a year- and that's an average salary for the field. Why should this be taken into special consideration for teachers if the rest of us get screwed over just as much?

I come from a family of teachers. Honestly, I want to sympathize with the teachers here. But all this is because the union refused a pay freeze? My county's school system has a pay freeze, a hiring freeze, and they're still letting people go. There are less people to do more work for less money. This is the best school district in the state, and yes, the cost of living is astronomical here as well.

I get that the governor is an idiot, but NJ teachers are still better off (not just financially) than the vast majority of public school teachers in the country.

[AC126748]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 9:48pm

Wow, Gotham: you obviously know nothing about the teaching profession. My father was a high school teacher for 42 years and his job certainly lasted longer than your prescribed 8:00-3:00, Monday-Friday. He was at school by 7:00 most days and there close to 4:00. And teachers teach continuously--when, as you so glibly put it, a group of students is "handed off to the art teacher," the next group comes in to the history/English/mathematics class. And as others have pointed out, the job is a lot more than showing up and teaching: lesson plans, constant grading, after-school help (which is REQUIRED of most teachers, at least in Jersey), coaching and club advising...all of this can add up to well over fifty hours a week, including weekends. But you're probably a middle-management 9-5er who's never known anything but sitting at a desk, drinking coffee, and punching out at 5:00 on the dot, so I don't expect you to understand what we do.

Also, your post is incredibly insulting to physical education and art teachers. In the state of New Jersey, four years of physical education is REQUIRED of every student. It's a law--much good it did Fatass Christie, though. It's not like the kids go and get a free period when they're at gym. Phys Ed and art teachers are specialists with college degrees.

In the summer, most teachers take second jobs to make ends meet. I can name two dozen high school teachers I know who wait tables, bartend, or clean houses in the summer so that they can keep a roof over their heads and food on their table. Or they teach summer school, where they work with the most difficult students and try to teach them an entire year's curriculum in five weeks. You try that.

I teach college. Comparatively, it's a much, much easier job than teaching any kind of high school or middle school. Teachers earn every cent that they make, and it's usually not enough.

Updated On: 5/30/10 at 09:48 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 10:01pm

orangeskittles - look at my post earlier in the thread about why the wage freeze does not work for teachers.

Yes, our salaries here may be higher than other places, but the cost of living is much higher as well.

As you said yourself - we have to pay for the higher education. I have a BA and Masters - six years of school - and am still paying it off as most teachers are (and will be for quite some time). People seem to have it in their heads that teaching requires no more school than the average worker, and that's simply not true. Match our salaries to others in the private sector with comparable education (including the 100 hours or prof. development every five years we need to put in), and I don't think you'd hear another teacher complain about salary again. To tell us we make too much is beyond insulting.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 10:06pm

Just about everyone I know has been hit by a pay freeze and increased healthcare costs and has been asked to do more work with less resources.

Everyone I know works more for less these days, so generally, there is not a lot of sympathy out there for teachers who have waged a terrible PR war.

Your union got played by Christie (who I have no sympathy for, but who has seemingly won the PR war on this issue).

And, my mom was a teacher for many, many years. I sympathize with the work and effort it takes to teach, but also get a little tired of teachers elevating themselves on a pedestal for a career they chose for themselves.

[AC126748]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 10:16pm

None of the teachers I know put themselves on a pedestal. The job--and what comes along with it--is so wildly misunderstood that it just becomes hard to sit back and listen to ill-informed opinions about the profession. Is it a crime to do your job well and to earn a fair wage for it? Seriously, I still meet people who call teachers "glorified babysitters" and don't believe in the public education system. Very few people will stand aside and listen to their chosen profession maligned and be told that not only are they undeserving of the money that they make, but that they're essentially money-grubbing and care about nothing but their own interests.

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 10:19pm

AC - almost exactly what I was going to say - very nice.

No one is putting us on a pedestal (though perhaps if people did the educational system in this country would be comparable to Japan's where teachers are respected), but as AC said - the job is so misunderstood -- it is NOT what it used to be when most of us were in school by a long shot.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 10:38pm

No, it is not a crime to be paid a fair wage for the job you do. I think teachers provide a very important and essential role. But, there are cuts everywhere, across all components of public sector employees.

A lot of state, city and county workers, especially in California, have generous benefit packages that really are not factored in when people complain about compensation.

A lot of people have very tough jobs. Including teachers. But right now, when a whole bunch of people are being asked for shared sacrifice (in part, at least in California, because of health care and pension costs for public employees), you are not going to get a lot of sympathy for your position.

For the record, I think sometimes the Teacher's Union does a disservice to the cause. I understand that teaching today is nothing like it was 20 years ago, and that the job is tough - but there also seems to be as much interest in protected the vested interests of tenured teachers as working to provide a quality education. There are a host of reasons for this, including parents abdicating their responsibilities but quick to blame others, administrations that are overloaded with supervisors and well, administrators, and teachers who should not longer be anywhere near a student.

And, when I hear a teacher calling Christie names, it does not really engender a lot of support.

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:00pm

I am so sick of the "shared sacrifice" nonsense. Christie keeps throwing that term around - where has he made even the SMALLEST sacrifice?

Additionally, when times were good, I didn't see the private sector caring that teachers were having a tough time - some barely making cost of living wages. Now that times are tough, suddenly it's time for everyone to make sacrifices for the greater good.
You know what? The wage freeze, as explained, is far more than just not taking a raise for a year.

No doubt, there are PLENTY of places where money can be cut in the educational system. How about consolidating districts and getting rid of all the superintendents in this state? Do all schools need multiple APs? They need to stop going after the middle class teachers and go after the REAL problems in education.

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:11pm

I really don’t post here often anymore but I happened to come upon this thread and there are a few VERY disturbing comments. I am shocked, saddened, and extremely surprised to see some of these comments.


Here are just two which caused me great pain and anger.

“...but also get a little tired of teachers elevating themselves on a pedestal for a career they chose for themselves.”

Hello?? Are you serious? CHOOSE THIS CAREER? Yes, we sure did. And you know why? We did it because we WANT to help kids learn and succeed in life. We aren’t looking to be on a pedestal or even praised. We do, however, expect fairness. Unless you have actually been a teacher, there is absolutely no reason for you to complain about how “well” (which is beyond laughable) teachers are being treated. We put up with a lot of s*it. Yes, you can even say we sort of put ourselves in the position to deal with it, but we expect respect from other citizens and professionals.


“Let me see if I have this right:

For approximately $60,000, a worker shows up around 8:15, teaches for awhile, then hands the class over to the art teacher for 1 hour, then comes back teaches awhile longer, then hands the kids over to the gym teacher for 1 hour, teaches awhile longer, then lets the kids go to lunch for 1 hour, then teaches awhile, then hands the kids over to the music teacher for 1 hour. 3:00 rolls around and the teacher gets to pack up and go home (no surprises which require teacher to stay late). On top of that, teacher gets June, July and August off.

Where do I sign up?”

I’ve read some pretty bad writing and incorrect information in my time, but I’m pretty sure this has topped it off as the most asinine. I truly wish that you, Goth, could be a teacher in a classroom for 1 day, just 1 day to give you only .00001% of the taste of what it's like-- which isn't bad, in the nearest extent, but FAR BEYOND anything in which you described.
I really hope you typed that on some off the wall drunk moment and that's not what you truly believe. At least, for my own sanity, that's what I will think.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:19pm

Hey, I agree there are other ways to cut costs, but unfortunately, most folks do not under stand that the school administration and actual teachers are not one in the same. You have so far lost the PR war on the issue.


Updated On: 5/30/10 at 11:19 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:22pm

The sad truth is, Goth and his Republican ilk ACTUALLY believe that nonsense - that teachers teach 9 months a year, three hours a day.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:28pm

"I’ve read some pretty bad writing and incorrect information in my time, but I’m pretty sure this has topped it off as the most asinine."

What do you disagree with? Did I underestimate the amount of time that a teacher gets off?

Most private sector jobs give two weeks (10 days) paid vacation and the big 6 (New Years, Memorial, July 4, Labor Day, Thanksgiving & Christmas). If you are an exempt employee, you can work as much as 50-70 hours per week for the same amount of pay. If you screw up in private sector, you don't get put in a rubber room on "administrative leave" like teachers do, your ass gets canned.

You want a difficult job? Try waiting tables. Those people work hard for very little money and no union behind them.

I'm not saying teaching isn't hard, but it's not slave work either.

Updated On: 5/30/10 at 11:28 PM

[SweetQintheLights]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:36pm

"You want a difficult job? Try waiting tables. Those people work hard for very little money and no union behind them."

I've waited tables. I've even waited tables in retirement/nursing homes.
Teaching is much more difficult and time consuming.

When's the last time you have taught at a school?

[jasonf]

Posted: 5/30/10 at 11:37pm

Waiting tables -- capable of being done by a high school dropout.

Teaching -- Bare minimum requirement -- BA and 100 hours development over five years for your career.

Your comparison is ludicrous and insulting.