Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 20

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 12:01am

::rimshot::

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 1:11am

Nice.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 8:30am

Chapter 13 The Secret Riddle

Harry attends his second private lesson with Dumbledore. They pick up the story of Voldemort’s past learning that Merope sold Slytherin’s locket before dying soon after Voldemort’s birth. Dumbledore and Harry once again enter the Pensieve to see Dumbledore’s memory of going to an orphanage to invite Tom Riddle to attend Hogwarts.

*Discussion Questions*

Do you think that Dumbledore not only trusts Snape, but trusts him above other Hogwarts teachers? Support your case!

How does Harry and Dumbledore’s exchange about the choices made by Lily and Merope fit with our previous discussion of the importance of mothers in the books?

How does the scene between Dumbledore and Tom compare to Hagrid’s
meeting with Harry in SS?

What do you think of the young Tom Riddle?

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 6:45pm

Do you think that Dumbledore not only trusts Snape, but trusts him above other Hogwarts teachers? Support your case!

No, not really. I think that he trusts McGonagall more, maybe because he knows that she has never even been tempted by the evil side. Well, I don't suppose we really know if she's been tempted or not, but she has never joined the Death Eater's. I think that Dumbledore trusts Snape, certainly, but that he realizes that he can't trust him too much, because of his past.

How does the scene between Dumbledore and Tom compare to Hagrid’s meeting with Harry in SS?

In SS, it took Hagrid a lot more time to convince Harry that he was a Wizard. Harry had been brought up in the Dudley household, where they drilled it into his head that there was no such thing as magic. Tom also seemed to be aware of his powers and use them more than Harry had, so it was easier for him to accept the fact that he was a wizard. He also probably really liked the idea that he was different, because as we saw, he hates being the same as someone else.

What do you think of the young Tom Riddle?

I don't really like him because he steals and uses his powers to hurt others conciously, but I do pity him.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 6:52pm

I am only going to respond to the first question right now: The evidence from the books seems to show that Dumbledore trusts Snape more. Whenever anything happens it is Snape Dumbledore calls upon.
It is Snape who is the called upon here to undo the curse on the necklace, I don't think this is because he is the DADA teacher, it goes much deeper. That role never would have gone to Quirrel, or Lockhart, or even Lupin (it may have been the case for Moody though)
I think that Snape's past has no effect on Dumbledore's estimation of him. It seems his trust in Snape is complete.

Updated On: 3/27/06 at 06:52 PM

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:08pm

Except that up until this year, Dumbledore never allowed Snape to take the post of DADA teacher, even when he was certainly more qualified than say, Lockhart and Quirrel.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:09pm

My argument against that is later in the book.
I will just say I don't think he wasn't given the job due to LACK of trust.

Updated On: 3/27/06 at 07:09 PM

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:12pm

Oh, okay.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 7:30pm

Still getting caught up on the chapters, but...

Dumbledore never allowed Snape to take the post of DADA teacher, even when he was certainly more qualified than say, Lockhart and Quirrel.

I think the biggest reason that Snape got the DADA post this year has more to do with Dumbledore's support of Harry than anything else.

Remember, Harry only received an "Exceeds Expectations" on his O.W.L.s. in Potions. Snape's requirement to go into his N.E.W.T.s program is Outstanding. Harry not being allowed to go forward in Potions would eliminate his chances at becoming an auror.

However, due to Slughorn having lesser requirements Harry was able to follow his career plan of choice. (Pg 175 for specific quotes)

This was sort of glazed over in the book, but I choose to think that this is the primary reason that Snape was given the DADA position this season. It not only allows Harry to continue his path to becoming an auror, it also proves that Dumbledore trusts Snape explicitly which is key to future discussion points as we move along.
Updated On: 3/27/06 at 07:30 PM

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 10:54pm

I'm very disappointed in you Stephen. Why can't you be more like Tiff? Why can't you all be more like Tiff?

If I didn't already have a ridiculous amount of lines in my signature, this would join it! *hands Yoda an apple and a twenty*

Do you think that Dumbledore not only trusts Snape, but trusts him above other Hogwarts teachers? Support your case!

I don't know if it's "trust" so much as "reliance". Snape wouldn't be of as much use to Dumbledore if not for his Death Eater past and his "in" with the current DA community and Voldy. Everyone else has covered what I think (I do think that Dumbledore relies on Snape more than any other Hogwarts teacher), but I expect the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so much will be fully revealed in HP7.

How does Harry and Dumbledore’s exchange about the choices made by Lily and Merope fit with our previous discussion of the importance of mothers in the books?

I think I'm going a bit batty because I JUST read that chapter and I can't, for the life of me, find that passage! (I know I read it, but I can't refer to the exact wording anymore.) The fact that Merope's dying words were in voice her hopes that Tom Riddle Jr. would get his father's good looks makes her seem more emotionally detached to him than any other mother in the book, which in a way illicits...not sympathy, but a bit more understanding.

How does the scene between Dumbledore and Tom compare to Hagrid’s
meeting with Harry in SS?

Aside from the differences in how believing they were of the news, I found it more notable that Tom readily - in fact, eagerly - accepted this fact, as if it validated and confirmed all the high opinions (or the facade) he had of himself. It finally justified his boasts about how "different" or "special" he is.

What do you think of the young Tom Riddle?

Well, if he looks like Christian Coulson...

*slurp*

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/27/06 at 11:48pm

I doubt that Dumbledore would change a teacher for the benefit of one student, even if he is "The Chosen One" who has to defeat Voldemort. If his reason for making Snape DADA teacher is so that he can hire a teacher who will let Harry in with lower expectations than Snape would have had, then I have been misjudging Dumbledore's character.

It could be possible that he thought it would be much easier to find a Potions teacher, and he had a willing candidate for the DADA post already.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:03am

The name of the book is "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" though. In Dumbledore's eyes Harry Potter has never been simply "another student". As I stated in my original post, I think more of this will unfold as we move forward. I also think that Dumbledore feels that Harry has more to gain by learning from Snape at this point.

Clearly, Dumbledore is concerned with the students, but he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Harry is the Chosen One and in order to rid the world of Voldemort, Harry has to be trained/taught as best possible. It would be irresponsible of Dumbledore to play "unbiased educator" with the knowledge that he has about Harry's destiny.

This is also evident with Dumbledore's frequent absences from Hogwarts. Given the dark time the wizarding world is in, the school has become secondary priority for Dumbledore. I believe he is more focused on the greater good than diplomatic teaching choices.
Updated On: 3/28/06 at 12:03 AM

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 12:04am

Chapter 13 Answers

Do you think that Dumbledore not only trusts Snape, but trusts him above other Hogwarts teachers? Support your case!

I highly doubt that Dumbledore ranks people based on trust. Dumbledore is certainly mindful of Snape's past, but I think he either trusts you or he doesn't.

It is revealed in this chapter that the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape with Katie Bell's curse is because he has a lot of experience with the Dark Arts. I am not sure it's so much a trust issue rather than going with the person best suited to help solve your problem.

In general, I feel strongly that Snape is always operating as an ally to Dumbledore regardless of how dark it may seem. I am also confident that Dumbledore is aware of the "lifestyle" that we learned about in Chapter 2.


How does Harry and Dumbledore’s exchange about the choices made by Lily and Merope fit with our previous discussion of the importance of mothers in the books?

The relationship between a mother and a son is definitely a recurring theme in the series and specifically in this book.

Narcissa/Draco in Chapter 2.
Lily/Harry
Merope/Tom Riddle Jr.
Alice/Neville
Molly/Ron & Ginny

While I am not sure that we can know for certain how it ultimately will play out until the series is over, I think it's likely basic sociology. So much of who we are is determined to the choices made by our parents.

I suspect that Jo Rowling is focusing on mother's as she is a relatively new mother herself and she has a first hand knowledge of the sacrifice that a mother would be willing to make for her children.

When you take away the good vs. evil aspects of the debate and take a look at the love that the mothers have for their children in almost every instance. The one glowing exception is Merope giving up and leaving Tom alone. It's a hard handed metaphor that he is the one who ends up being the most notorious wizard of all time, but despite it's lack of originiality it's still a very interesting story.

How does the scene between Dumbledore and Tom compare to Hagrid’s meeting with Harry in SS?

It was quite similar in many ways. This chapter further illustrates how Harry and Tom/LV aren't really all that different in origin. Clearly the young Tom is more aware of his being "different" from the muggles he was around and a more advanced Wizard than Harry was at age 11, but the central theme of being ripped away from your parents and forced into a world in which you didn't belong was there.

It's an interesting commentary on the fact that what seems at the time like very small choices can make such a dramatic impact on deciding who were are or who we become. In real life it isn't as dramatic as good vs. evil, but we can at least relate to the scenario.

What do you think of the young Tom Riddle?

Well, the obvious answer is that he is a rude, angry, dangerous kid. However, I can't help but feel sorry for him at this stage of his life. He was abandoned by his parents, has never felt love from anyone and desperately needs someone positive in his life. Sadly, it is too late for that, but his life has been and will continue to be a tragedy.
Updated On: 3/28/06 at 12:04 AM

[pndmnd]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 11:43am

I've missed you guys!

Do you think that Dumbledore not only trusts Snape, but trusts him above other Hogwarts teachers? Support your case!

I pretty much agree with Patronous and Tiff on this one. I don't see Dumbledore as trusting Snape above, say McGonnigal, I think Dumbledore just trusts. I do think he relies on Snape for certain things, but that has more to do with Snapes knowledge in those areas. I don't think he distrusts Pomfrey, for instance, I think she just wouldn't know as well how to handle the situation. It's the same reason why he had Snape teach Harry Occulmency (sp?). Snape was one of the best wizards at it.

How does Harry and Dumbledore’s exchange about the choices made by Lily and Merope fit with our previous discussion of the importance of mothers in the books?

Maybe it's the sympathetic side of me, but I actually feel for Merope and Riddle at this point. It appears that Merope didn't have the courage to do what was best for her son, but keep in mind that her husband had left and she would be terrified to take the baby back to her father. Maybe in Merope's depression filled mind, she thought it would be better for Riddle to live without her. I don't think I really know enough at this point to say what she truly was thinking.

Obviously her leaving had a big impact on Voldemort, though. He assumes that it was his father that was the wizard, and not his mother, which kind of shows a distaste for the woman who "abandoned" him.

In terms of Harry's response that Merope had a choice and his mother didn't: Since the age of 11, Harry has known that his mother died to save him. I think that at times he doesn't really think about what that means, and what it would be like to do that. I believe that we've mentioned this before, but it kind of goes along with the question of, if Voldemort had chosen Neville, would Alice have made the same choice that Lily did, or would Neville have been killed. I think she would have died for him as well, but that's another issue entirely.

How does the scene between Dumbledore and Tom compare to Hagrid’s meeting with Harry in SS?

As was already said, besides the amount of time it took Hagrid to convince Harry vs. Dumbledore convincing Riddle, it's a definite statement on Riddle. He sees himself as being different. Before, that probably meant being weird, whereas now it means special or important. For Harry, life was pretty bad at the Dursleys, but it seemed to just be a fact of his life. He didn't really try to stand out or be special, he really tried more to blend in and not be noticed by them.

What do you think of the young Tom Riddle?

I find it interesting that, while he and Harry were both brought up under similar circumstances, Harry wasn't an angry, violent kid, whereas Riddle was. Riddle was one of those people who viewed life as if the world owed him for his hardships. Harry learned from his rough beginnings, Riddle let them add fuel to his fire.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/28/06 at 10:57pm

Do you think that Dumbledore not only trusts Snape, but trusts him above other Hogwarts teachers? Support your case!

I agree with Tiff on this one, "I don't know if it's 'trust' so much as 'reliance'." We'll probably come back to this one later when there may be more canon to work with.

How does Harry and Dumbledore’s exchange about the choices made by Lily and Merope fit with our previous discussion of the importance of mothers in the books?

I find it interesting that Harry says that his mother didn't have a choice. As Dumbledore answers, she did. We know from PoA that Voldemort told Lily to stand aside. In a story where choices are so important it is telling that both mother's made a choice to die.
Merope is a very sympathetic character, I think that Voldemort's perception of his parents as weak did a lot to shape his personality and motivate his quest to be the most powerful wizard in the world.

How does the scene between Dumbledore and Tom compare to Hagrid’s meeting with Harry in SS?

This has been pretty thoroughly covered. "...the central theme of being ripped away from your parents and forced into a world in which you didn't belong was there." I like this a lot Stephen, it's an excellent summing up of their shared circumstances.

What do you think of the young Tom Riddle?

"...his life has been and will continue to be a tragedy." Another perfect quote from Stephen. Riddle is a bully, but he's also a lost child who's never known love. He covers his longing for his mother with distain for her "weakness."

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/29/06 at 6:50pm

Since our wonderful discussion moderator, YodaMarie78 is the Message Board Celebrity of the Day and will most likely be up late tonight answering questions about herself, I think we should expect our next round of questions to come on Friday instead of the scheduled Thursday. Sound fair?

To keep us in discussion mode though, I have a question that I'd like to add for Chapter 13.

In Chapter 13, we learn that Dumbledore himself went to the orphanage to tell Tom Riddle that he was in fact a wizard and to offer him a spot at Hogwarts. Why didn't Dumbledore do the same for Harry in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone rather than just sending letters and eventually Hagrid? Was it just the fact that Dumbledore was the Headmaster now and had people to do these things for him or was it more of a calculated choice? What roll, if any, do you think Tom Riddle's evolution into Voldemore played into this?

Or...feel free to ignore me and wait for Sara.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/29/06 at 10:26pm

Which is apparently what everyone decided to do.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 3/29/06 at 10:40pm

Why didn't Dumbledore do the same for Harry in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone rather than just sending letters and eventually Hagrid? Was it just the fact that Dumbledore was the Headmaster now and had people to do these things for him or was it more of a calculated choice? What roll, if any, do you think Tom Riddle's evolution into Voldemore played into this?

I think it was a calculated thing for him. Hagrid isn't the most powerful wizard ever, it could be very intimidating to have Dumbledore fetch Harry himself.

I odnt think it has any role in Tom Riddle's evolution at all.

But this was a 2 second answer because I was trying to think quickly to make Patronus feel unignored.

So please someone else make a comment!

[Overthemoon6]

Posted: 3/29/06 at 11:16pm

I'm sorry, I'll do it later.

I have a history essay due on Friday about the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, and whether I think that, if it hadn't happened, then the war would have happened or not. (by the way, if anyone has any input, I would love it! )

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 3/30/06 at 12:15am

I'm going to presume that no one has an issue with Stephen's suggestion that we resume our discussion on Friday, especially since he actually supplied a question to tide everyone over. So new chapter on Friday. And a huge Thank You to Stephen!

[pndmnd]

Posted: 3/30/06 at 9:41am

Yoda, considering the fact that you have volunteered to lead this discussion, I don't think we have any room to complain when things need to be delayed or pushed back. We understand!

Patronus--I swear I will answer your question this evening when I have more time. I want to think through my answer a little more before I post it.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/30/06 at 9:44am

Pndmnd, I think that's a good idea. Thinking before posting should be the #1 rule for a lot of the people here on BWW.

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 3/30/06 at 9:52am

Dumbledore says at one point, I believe, that he volunteered for the job to check on Riddle. He wanted to find him, because he seemed to suspect that this boy was different. It was very soon after he had defeated Grindewald, if I am not confusing my timelines, and I think this plays a role. There were rumors about this boy, and his family's past was certainly a factor.

In contrast with Harry, he had none of these negatives. Dumbledore had far more influence there. His plan was to stay back and try to treat Harry as normally as possible. Even when things went wrong, it was never anything that he was likely concerned over. If he had done it himself then he might have given away to Harry that he was of special importance.

[Patronus]

Posted: 3/30/06 at 10:01am

Maybe or maybe not...I mean Harry wouldn't have known Dumbledore from Hagrid at that point in terms of being awestruck, right?


I just think it's interesting given how much Dumbledore seems to know about the prophecy and probably knew most of it at the time of Philosopher's Stone that he wouldn't go get him in person. It may be a classic "over thinking minor things" moment but given all the other similarities between Harry and Tom's journeys this seems to be one major difference to me.

Dumbledore actually went to the Dursley's in person to "deliver" Harry as well when he was a baby so he had to feel that there was something special about him beyond the "boy who lived" saga. Dumbledore doesn't strike me as someone who would have been swept up in that.

I haven't really formed a strong theory myself, but I was really curious to hear other people's thoughts and it was a decent stall question.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 3/30/06 at 10:02am

SP- I completely agree with you on that one.

I think Dumbledore really liked that Harry just saw himself as a typical boy, not a famous wizard and did not want to show favortiam to him at first.

Even though I do not think they knew much of Riddle's family tree because it seemed to me like Dumbbledore had to use others' memories to piece it together, I may be wrong though.