Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 23

[pndmnd]

Posted: 4/10/06 at 10:41pm

Jumping in on the off-topic part of the conversation:

Order of the Phoneix is actually my favorite book (an opinion that most people don't seem to agree with), but Goblet of Fire was right up towards the top of my ratings, as well. The book was definitely different from the movie, and I completely see where you're coming from with being dissapointed. I think the reason it didn't bother me too much, though, is that I'm kind of used to that. I've read a lot of books that have been made into movies (or read a book and then seen the movie), and they're almost always quite different. I've kind of learned to go into the movie viewing it as a different entity. Then I just watch it seperate from the book(s) and am not dissapointed in what's missing or changed.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 4/10/06 at 10:47pm

Personally, I find Hermione's actions at the end of this chapter very telling. She's excelled in all the academics her whole life. She has the "book smarts" and academic intelligence to challenge the professors at Hogwarts. She has never been left behind......except in the social world of her peers. In this area, Hermione is average, if not below average. And so she reacts as a wounded 16 year old girl would. Is it right? No, but here I think she acts with her heart, and not with her head.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 4/13/06 at 12:12pm

Bumping...

[singingwendy]

Posted: 4/13/06 at 4:31pm

Are we going to get questions for the next chapter soon? I started re-reading for this post, but once I start Harry Potter, I can't put it down! I'm already close to the end!

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 4/19/06 at 9:55am

I have been good. I read the next chapter, then put the book down. But it is beckoning to me. Which is the main reason I got 11 books at the library last night, so I won't be as tempted.

I am trying to think of things they have been discussing in the Mugglecast Chapter by Chapter of the first book just to keep the discussion semi alive.

I know their has been a lot of discussion other places on how much Mrs Dursley knows...anyone have any thoughts? (I know not the most creative question but...I tried)

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 4/19/06 at 1:30pm

Sorry about the hiatus everyone. Between work and school and vacation I've had no time. I expect to have things up and running again on Friday. Look for a new chapter then.

Until then here's a general question that caused a heated debate last week.

Can Muggles use floo powder? If a Muggle picked up a wand and tried to use it, would anything happen? What about side-along apparition?

Posted: 4/19/06 at 4:41pm

This book is probably my favorite... but, does anyone else agree that R.A.B. is Regelus Black? Unless Harry doesn't know his Godfather had a brother, I'm surprised he didn't figure it out.

But then again, it might not be Regelus.

To answer your question, I'm sure they could use the floo powder, and maybe side-along apparition, since it's not like they're actually doing anything but jumping into a fireplace and tagging along.

The wand might be another story.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 4/19/06 at 7:53pm

Whoo hoo! I've been so busy, too (getting ready to move), so I haven't even read the next chapter yet! Now for the current questions:

"I know their has been a lot of discussion other places on how much Mrs Dursley knows...anyone have any thoughts? (I know not the most creative question but...I tried"

I definitely think she knows more than she admits. I also think that her poor treatment of Harry is probably out of some sort of jealousy of her sister (and perhaps just missing her sister). We know that Harry has a moment of realization that Petunia is Lily's sister (not just factually, but emotionally), and what that means, so Petunia must have those moments with Harry, too.

"Can Muggles use floo powder? If a Muggle picked up a wand and tried to use it, would anything happen? What about side-along apparition?"

I agree that they can probably use floo powder and side-along apparition since that doesn't take any magic on their part (well, maybe floo powder does, I'm not sure). I doubt that a wand would do anything for them, though, unless they were magical and didn't know it.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 4/19/06 at 8:01pm

Since this is a chapter by chapter discussion and we are only on Chapter 14 please save discussion of R.A.B. for the appropriate chapter.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 4/21/06 at 10:22am

Chapter 15 The Unbreakable Vow

Harry is frustrated with Ron and Hermione who refuse to talk to one another. As the Slug Club Christmas party draws near Hermione advises Harry to go ahead and ask someone so the rest of the Hogwarts girls will leave him alone. Harry runs into Luna Lovegood and asks her to the party as “just friends.” Hermione tells Lavender, in front of Ron, that she’s going to the party with Cormac McLaggen. At the party Harry attempts to escape being drawn into conversation with various people. Filtch comes in with Draco, who was “lurking in an upstairs corridor.” Slughorn tells Filtch not to worry about it and invites Draco to stay. Snape asks to speak to Draco alone and Harry follows them out of the room. Snape tells Draco about the Unbreakable Vow, but Draco says that he doesn’t want Snape’s help and isn’t going to reveal his plan.

*Discussion Questions*

What do you think about Harry’s decision to invite Luna to the party?

This is only the second time we’ve witnessed a Slug Club event. What do you think?

Why doesn’t Draco trust Snape?

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 4/22/06 at 12:11am

bump

[singingwendy]

Posted: 4/22/06 at 10:22am

What do you think about Harry’s decision to invite Luna to the party?

I think this is an example of Harry's not caring what other people think about him. He's friends with Luna, so he invites Luna. Plus, he doesn't want to deal with all the "fangirls" he has at the time, and the uproar it might cause if he invites one of them. On one hand, I think he sees Luna as "the safe choice". By this time, he really only has feelings for Ginny, and can't invite her, since she's still with Dean. So he knows that if he goes with Luna, there are no expectations.....they are friends and that's all.

On the other hand, sometimes I think he just asks her because his friends keep bugging him to make a choice, and she happens to be there!



This is only the second time we’ve witnessed a Slug Club event. What do you think?

The "Slug Club" is interesting, because it's not created by the students, but by a teacher..... A teacher who wants to suck up to students who might do well after they leave Hogwarts. I think it may be another of JK Rowlings moves to expand Harry's world outside of Hogwarts and discuss his future.

Plus, the exclusion Ron from the club is interesting. In my eyes, everyone underestimates Ron, and I think he'll be crucial to the results in the next book.


Why doesn’t Draco trust Snape?

I don't think it's a matter of trust. I think Draco just wants to do it himself. He's always needed to be the king of the hill. Now he's got his chance to prove himself to Voldemort, and he's going to do it without help.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 4/27/06 at 12:34pm

Bumping to see if anyone is still interested. I'm planning to post more questions tomorrow.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 4/27/06 at 1:07pm

Sorry it took me so long to answer these...I was a little busy


What do you think about Harry’s decision to invite Luna to the party?

I loved it. Harry decided to take who he wanted to. i think it shows that he is maturing and he really does not want to be cool and, as Wendy said "I think this is an example of Harry's not caring what other people think about him. He's friends with Luna, so he invites Luna." I agree with that completly.


This is only the second time we’ve witnessed a Slug Club event. What do you think?

I think it is an interesting statement comparing the wizarding world to the Muggle world. The Slug Club is people that Slughorn believes are going to be famous and he wants to be able to say that he "knew them back when" and that he predicted that they would do well. He pretty much uses them so he can be a name dropper. I think it could be a very negative thing in Hogwarts because it can make those in the club more egotistical and make those not in it feel like they will not be able to accomplish as much and be detrimental to their self esteem.

I think it shows the borderline obsession with the famous that is present even here in the real world. I think it is interesting how Harry and his friends do not really like the attention, while others in the Slug Club really seem to like it. I think it shows that none fo them really want to show off and that they understand what Slughorn is doing.

Why doesn’t Draco trust Snape?

I agree with Wendy on this one

[Zyla]

Posted: 4/27/06 at 2:20pm

Thought I'd drop into this thread again, since finals are finally over!

First of all, I agree with everything Wendy and Caitie have said. My answers to the discussion questions, then, may be superfluous, but I'll try to say things that are slightly different, or to elaborate a little on some thoughts.

What do you think about Harry’s decision to invite Luna to the party?

It definitely establishes their friendship. Not only is Harry appearing in public with her, he is actively seeking out her company. I agree with Caitie and Wendy, that this is an example of Harry not caring what others think of him. Public opinion is, obviously, a strong theme in the most recent books.

I recently re-read Order of the Phoenix, and I was really touched by the scene in the final chapter where Harry decides to skip the end-of-the-year feast and runs into Luna in the hall. It shows some wisdom in Luna's madness ("You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?", which I think is a wonderful quote), and reveals another similarity between Harry and Luna. We know that both have seen death and can, therefore, see Thestrals, identifying them (and Neville) as unique. Luna also (returning to the important theme) does not care what others think of her: "'Oh...well...' she shrugged. 'I think they think I'm a bit odd, you know. Some people call me "Loony" Lovegood, actually.'" She is aware that people think she's strange, but she does not care about it. She still stands up for her beliefs, no matter how ridiculous they sound. She perseveres against the popular opinion.
(Sorry about that long tangent! Can you tell that I like Luna?)

This is only the second time we’ve witnessed a Slug Club event. What do you think?

I agree with Caitie that the club "shows the borderline obsession with the famous that is present even here in the real world." That statement made me think, oddly enough, of the musical "Chicago", which carries a similar message, observing a darker side of our culture's idolization of the famous. Roxie and Velma are cold-blooded murderesses ("NOBODY walks out on me!"), but they are practically worshipped for the simple reason that their names are splashed across every newspaper headline. Going back to Harry Potter, this makes me wonder: would Slughorn willingly, knowingly associate with, for example, Death Eaters for the sake of "having connections" with someone "known"?

The obsession with fame can also relate to the theme of individuality vs. popular opinion. Sort of like the emperor's new clothes - nobody dares to insult the emperor (could be considered a celebrity), so the popular opinion is to say that he is wearing a beautiful suit of clothes. Then a child, someone who would usually be disregarded as simple and unknowledgeable, blurts out the truth.

I also like what Wendy pointed out - "the exclusion Ron from the club is interesting. In my eyes, everyone underestimates Ron, and I think he'll be crucial to the results in the next book." I wholeheartedly agree, and can't help but remember the reactions to his becoming a prefect. Even Ron himself was rendered speechless.

Why doesn’t Draco trust Snape?

Again, I agree with Wendy's points, but have a couple of different theories. Draco could believe that Snape, spying for Dumbledore, is simply trying to sabotage his attempts to complete the task. His lack of trust, if you want to call it that, in Snape may also indicate his doubt in his own self. Allying with Snape - an experienced adult who would probably know what he is doing - might reinforce the reality of the task. Draco, an adolescent assigned with this heavy task, might want to deny it, not really sure if he can complete it or if he even wants to. Accepting Snape's help may cement Draco to the task. On his own, he could let it slide, put in only half an effort; Snape may make sure the task gets done.
(If that made any sense!)
Edit: I know that the last part kind of contrasts with what Wendy said, but both may be valid points. What's the use of discussion if everyone has the exact same opinions?

Sorry about the long post, obviously I had a lot of thoughts to share.
One more thing - Many belated congratulations to Caitie and Wendy for their turns as Celebrity of the Day!





Updated On: 4/27/06 at 02:20 PM

[singingwendy]

Posted: 4/27/06 at 11:21pm

Well, Yoda...I'll keep commenting....it's kind of fun when everyone agrees with you! LOL!

[Patronus]

Posted: 4/28/06 at 10:42am

Sorry for the delay by me guys and dolls. I am definitely going to try and get caught up today and tomorrow.

Chapter 14: Felix Felicis
Delayed Answers

What are the moral implications of the actions of each of the trio, Harry fooling Ron, Hermione not threatening to turn them in until after the match, and Ron "using" the Felix Felicis?

I don't really think that there are any moral implications here. Hermione doesn't particularly feel strongly about Quidditch, but she clearly feels very strongly about her friends and to a lesser extent her "house." Using the "Felix Felicis" might be illegal, but Slughorn gave it to Harry knowing that it would get used and even though the trio is growing up and should know the difference in right and wrong there is something quite "comforting" about a teacher or authority figure effectively condoning something that is against the rules. We've seen this from many teachers at Hogwarts.

If anything I think it's a lighthearted way of Jo showing us just how strong the power of persuasion can be. It is textbook Jo Rowling to show us something in a whimsical and fun way that ends up being a very important and series in later chapters or books.

Hermione’s actions at the end of the chapter, causing the birds to attack Ron, have been very controversial. What do you think?

I find the responses on this to be a bit surprising and frankly a little disturbing. It makes me feel very fortunate for yet another reason that I am happily married and don't have to worry about some of you vindictive women out there.

Seriously, the bottom line here is that Ron and Hermione were both out of line. I understand why they each did what they did. I can certainly remember that thrill of first love or that sudden realization that a close friend may be something a little bit more.

From a literary perspective I feel it is necessary to have Hermione behave this way. I think that it shows that Hermione isn't "robotic" and I feel it is very necessary and will prove to be a bigger deal in the future for us to know that Hermione can think outside the box and get a bit passionate, if not even nasty when need be.

On a personal level, I don't condone her actions though I do remember what it was like to be a teenager in love and the one thing that never prevailed in that scenario was logic. It's nearly impossible to just say what you feel when young love has taken over the reigns of sanity.

I feel like Hermione was very much out of line for doing what she did, though I am guessing that despite being mauled by birds, on some level Ron probably felt like he was on top of the world.

Petty jealously and irrational behavior is almost a requirement in teenage love isn't it?

[Patronus]

Posted: 4/28/06 at 4:10pm

I am not reading the other thoughts that have already been posted, so forgive me if I post redundant views.

What do you think about Harry’s decision to invite Luna to the party?

It's nice. Luna is a character who hasn't been around since Book 1 or 2, and I feel this is Jo really making a point to remind us that she is part of the team.

Based on previous discussions about this, I believe a lot of people read a lot more into Harry inviting than is really here. I don't think this is Harry making a conscious effort to defy what others thing or that he is even aware of the choice. Luna was there, it was a means to put an end to the "risk" of getting hit with a love potion and it worked out.

We had an instance earlier in the book when Harry chose to stay with Neville and Luna and that was clearly intended to show us how much Harry has matured. I think in this example it's just chance.


This is only the second time we’ve witnessed a Slug Club event. What do you think?

I don't really have a strong opinion about this. They seem to be a place where Slughorn can stroke his ego by surround himself with the best bloodlines at Hogwarts.


Why doesn’t Draco trust Snape?

At this point, we know that Draco has a very important mission from the dark lord. I think that being a teenager Draco is terrified of failure. Bellatrix seems to have a lot of influence on Snape and it's already been established that she doesn't trust him. I suspect that the "bad guys" are just a concerned about Snape as the "good guys (minus Dumbledore)" are.

[yodamarie78]

Posted: 5/1/06 at 3:47pm

Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas

Harry and Ron go to the Burrow for Christmas break. Harry tells Ron about the conversation he overheard between Snape and Malfoy. Harry also tells Mr. Weasley and Lupin about his concerns, but they tell him that Dumbledore’s trust in Snape should be enough. Christmas morning Percy shows up at the Burrow with Scrimgeour, who asks Harry to speak with him outside. Scrimgeour hints that he would like Harry to be seen around the Ministry. Harry tells him that he can’t do that since he doesn’t agree with the way they are handling things, such as arresting Stan Shunpike when they know he isn’t guilty. Scrimgeour calls Harry “Dumbledore’s man” and leaves.

*Discussion Questions*

Does it surprise you that Lupin and Arthur weren't more concerned after learning about an Unbreakable Vow between Draco and Snape?

In this chapter we learned exactly how Lupin became a werewolf. Are you surprised at how candidly Lupin shared this information with Harry? In turn, this is the first time that Harry had mentioned "The Half-Blood Prince" to an adult. What does this say about Harry and Lupin's relationship?

Everyone except Molly seems to see right through Percy's indifference to his parents and reasoning for being there. Do you think she sincerely is blinded by a mother's love or does she realize and not care?

After meeting Rufus Scrimgeour for the second time, how do you feel about him? Is he just a brash leader or should be call his allegiances into question?

Scrimegour states that "it doesn't really matter whether you are the 'Chosen One' or Not." Do you think he believes that? Do you think he feels that Harry is in fact the "Chosen One?"

*A huge Thank You to Patronus for supplying this weeks questions*

[Patronus]

Posted: 5/1/06 at 3:55pm

You're very welcome, Sara. A huge thank you to you for spending all the time you have working on this for everyone.

1) Does it surprise you that Lupin and Arthur weren't more concerned after learning about an Unbreakable Vow between Draco and Snape?

I find this really fascinating in regards to Lupin.

I know that the Order has this "we trust Dumbledore completely and don't question his actions mentality". I also realize that Harry raises a lot of red flags to the adults and even though he's usually proven true you can only cry wolf so many times regardless of how many wolves are actually out there before people start needing to see dead sheep in order to be alarmed.

That being said - I still find it odd that Lupin wouldn't be at least a little concerned about this unbreakable vow. I figure there are two trains of thought here:

A) Lupin already knew about the Unbreakable Vow. Since Snape is a member of the order he is simply still undercover and this is all part of the plan. This theory would also support that he and possible the entire order knows what this mysterious mission that Draco was given by Voldemort is and this is all part of the plan.

B) Lupin is involved in some capacity on the Dark Lord's side.

I don't accept B as being a possibility, so I wonder how much "in the know" about Snape's behavior the Order is at this point. The behavior early in the book my Mr. Weasley when Harry mentioned Draco acquiring something in Knockturn Alley would seemingly indicate that he wasn't aware of anything involving Draco at the time.

It just seems to me that hearing that a member of the Order (who just happens to be a former Death Eater) has vowed to give his life if he doesn't help Draco succeed at a task would raise some eyebrows unless there is more to this than we know.


2) In this chapter we learned exactly how Lupin became a werewolf. Are you surprised at how candidly Lupin shared this information with Harry? In turn, this is the first time that Harry had mentioned "The Half-Blood Prince" to an adult. What does this say about Harry and Lupin's relationship?

I am not too surprised although it is interesting to see the progression from the adults talking to the "kids" vs talking to "young adults".

Harry telling Lupin about the HBP just shows that Harry trusts him.


3) Everyone except Molly seems to see right through Percy's indifference to his parents and reasoning for being there. Do you think she sincerely is blinded by a mother's love or does she realize and not care?

I think it's probably a little bit of both. We know that nothing is more important to Molly than her family based on the Boggart from OotP so I think this is probably Molly just being thrilled to have her son back in her home and for the moment is willing to overlook the obvious reason as to why he is there.


4) After meeting Rufus Scrimgeour for the second time, how do you feel about him? Is he just a brash leader or should be call his allegiances into question?

In short, I think Scrimgeour is a politician. In some ways I get the feeling that the appearance of everything being ok is more important to him than the actuality of it.

I personally don't believe that Scrimegeour is a "bad guy" so to speak. His allegiance is most likely to himself and his rigid view of what is "right" equally for the wizarding world and his career.


5) Scrimgeour states that "it doesn't really matter whether you are the 'Chosen One' or Not." Do you think he believes that? Do you think he feels that Harry is in fact the "Chosen One?"

I don't think Scrimgeour believes that Harry is the chosen one. As the MoM and a former auror I think he feels that his reputation depends on Harry not being the "chosen one." Again, I think Scrimgeour's #1 concern is the perception of the people on Harry and indirectly on him.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 5/1/06 at 4:01pm

Ok first and big YAY to Yoda for doing this (you are amazing) and for my favorite Patronus for these questions!


Does it surprise you that Lupin and Arthur weren't more concerned after learning about an Unbreakable Vow between Draco and Snape?

Not at all. They trust Dumbledore's decision and think that Snape is just bluffing. If we had not "witnessed" the making of the vow, I would think he was just bluffing also.

In this chapter we learned exactly how Lupin became a werewolf. Are you surprised at how candidly Lupin shared this information with Harry?

Not really. I think this is one of those things that he feels Harry should know. I think that this is part of their relationship starting to grow a little more and I think that Lupin sees that is is important information for Harry to know, especially if the werewolf that did this to him is on Voldmort's side.

In turn, this is the first time that Harry had mentioned "The Half-Blood Prince" to an adult. What does this say about Harry and Lupin's relationship?

I think this says that Harry is turning to Lupin now that Sirius is gone. He is trying to use Lupin as a somewhat replacement, Sirius was the first fatherlike figure Harry had (well even the first parent like) AND friend/someone he can tell things to. In a difficult time like this he needs someone like that and is turning to Lupin (an excellent choice I must add)

Everyone except Molly seems to see right through Percy's indifference to his parents and reasoning for being there. Do you think she sincerely is blinded by a mother's love or does she realize and not care?

I think she realizes but doesn't really care, she is getting to see her son and if this is the only way, she will take it and be excited.

After meeting Rufus Scrimgeour for the second time, how do you feel about him?

What a f*cking politican! ARG! He reminds me of EVERYONE I hate in politics. (Yes that does include George Bush)

Is he just a brash leader or should be call his allegiances into question?

He is just a brash leader

Scrimegour states that "it doesn't really matter whether you are the 'Chosen One' or Not." Do you think he believes that? Do you think he feels that Harry is in fact the "Chosen One?"

I don't think he believes that Harry is and truly believes that it doesn't matter. All that matters to him is that he, and the ministry, looks good and looks like they are doing something when really they aren't at all (anyone else notice some parrellels between this and things in the world today?)

[Patronus]

Posted: 5/2/06 at 10:36am

*bump*

Did everyone get hit with a stupefy or is this just natural "finals" lull?

[singingwendy]

Posted: 5/2/06 at 10:41pm

Does it surprise you that Lupin and Arthur weren't more concerned after learning about an Unbreakable Vow between Draco and Snape?

Well... I know Harry sees it as "not concerned", but how do we know they really weren't. They didn't get excited, and decide to act immediately or give a big reaction, and I think that's what Harry was looking for. I think we need to realize that Harry is still kept somewhat "in the dark" about all the goings on of the Order of the Phoenix...somewhat for his own protection, and somewhat because of his age. My thought is that they took the information, but that we don't know that they didn't do any more investigating becasue of Harry's "tip".



In this chapter we learned exactly how Lupin became a werewolf. Are you surprised at how candidly Lupin shared this information with Harry?

No. Harry already knew Lupin was a werewolf, and this situation provided the perfect opportunity for Lupin to share a bit more about himself to Harry. Plus, Greyback (is that the werewolf's name, I can't remember) is now a threat to Harry and his friends. He needs that information. As we've seen in the past, JKR only reveals to us as much as we need to know at the time!

In turn, this is the first time that Harry had mentioned "The Half-Blood Prince" to an adult. What does this say about Harry and Lupin's relationship?

I agree with Caitie......Lupin is the remaining member of his father's group of friends (well..there's Wormtail, but we can't really count him anymore!) and so Harry feels a natural bond with him. I think Lupin is his last chance to connect to his family, and people who knew them. Plus, Harry remembers hearing the curses created in the book used during the scene he saw of his father in the Pensieve, so he figures that the HBP might have been at school with his parents. If that's true, then Lupin was there too, and might know who the HBP is.


Everyone except Molly seems to see right through Percy's indifference to his parents and reasoning for being there. Do you think she sincerely is blinded by a mother's love or does she realize and not care?

Both.....she realizes he's there on business, but he'll always be her son.

After meeting Rufus Scrimgeour for the second time, how do you feel about him?

He is doing what HE thinks is best. Is it the best thing? With what we know, absolutely not. He has his agenda, and obviously, it's not the same as that of the Order. Remember, he's now the head of the entire wizarding community. He's responsible for whatever happens to them, so he's being extra cautious and "playing the game". I do, however, think he's a better choice for Minister than Fudge.


Is he just a brash leader or should be call his allegiances into question?

As I said before, he's doing what HE thinks is right.....but he's not loyal to Voldemort.

Scrimegour states that "it doesn't really matter whether you are the 'Chosen One' or Not." Do you think he believes that? Do you think he feels that Harry is in fact the "Chosen One?"


No..I don't think he does. I don't think he believes that there is a "chosen one", but he's happy to perpetuate the idea if it gives hope and confidence to the people he's responsible for.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 5/2/06 at 11:03pm

I never answered for chapter 15! Oh well! I had a family event last weekend, and kind of missed the questions! Anyway, I will read 16 tonight and answer in the morning.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 5/17/06 at 10:18pm

So...anyone have any thoughts at all?

About anything?