Harry Potter Book Club - Chapter 16 A Very Frosty Christmas- Page 24

[singingwendy]

Posted: 5/17/06 at 10:46pm

Seems like we got "frozen" on this chapter. Maybe I'll review chapter 17 and see if I can come up with some new questions......that is if anyone still wants to discuss.....

[pndmnd]

Posted: 7/17/06 at 6:53pm

I wanted to see if anyone was interested in reviving our long lost book club! Any thoughts?

[sally1112]

Posted: 7/17/06 at 7:43pm

Wow.

[caitiesus1522]

Posted: 7/17/06 at 9:47pm

I actually finally just finished rereading the book today...I had been waiting but gave up...so people who think Snape is good..please PM me I want to know why you think that. Iam still bery unsure

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 7/17/06 at 9:51pm

I for one would love to keep the book club going.
Useless fact for the day: Yesterday, the 16th, was the day HBP came out last year.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/17/06 at 10:14pm

Ooops! Imagine my embarrassment when I opened this thread and saw that I had promised to write new questions! Are we still interested? I could probably scan the chapter and come up with a few...

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 7/17/06 at 11:34pm

Go for it!

[pndmnd]

Posted: 7/18/06 at 10:13pm

I'm game! I was getting ready to move cities when the discussion died out, and just now unpacked my last box of books (which held HBP, which is what made me think of this). Maybe we should just give it a try and see if it works! If not, I'll just go ahead and finish the book (again) on my own.
Updated On: 7/18/06 at 10:13 PM

[Atrias]

Posted: 7/18/06 at 10:23pm

Yes, finally! *waves HP flag*

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/18/06 at 10:36pm

ok...I'll review the chapter tonight and try to post some questions tomorrow!

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/19/06 at 11:41pm

Chapter 17--A Sluggish Memory

The students return to Hogwarts after Christmas Break. Harry tells Hermione about his overheard conversation between Snape and Draco, and she agrees that Draco is up to something, but tries to get Harry to look for less drastic results than he's imagined. A notice is posted for Appartition Lessons, which sends excitement through the ranks of the sixth years.

Harry has a lesson with Dumbledore, where he shares his Snape and Draco conversation, which Dumbledore appears to be unaffected by. Dumbledore shares two more memories with Harry via the Pensieve. The first is of Tom Riddle returning to his mother's home, meeting his uncle Morfin, learning of his Muggle parentage, killing the remaining Riddles, and then implanting false memories in Morfin so that Morfin believes he is the killer. The second memory involves Tom Riddle and Professor Slughorn at an earlier "Slug Club" meeting. Riddle asks about horcruxes, but Slughorn's true answer is unheard, since Slughorn has tampered with and changed his original memory. Dumbledore gives Harry the assignment to get the true recollection out of Slughorn.


1. Throughout book six, Harry and his friends experience many "coming of age" rituals, such as Apparition Lessons. Do you think Rowling's intent is to have us compare such things to events in the Muggle world or to simply show that all cultures have coming of age rituals? Also, why do you think that wizards are considered adult in the Wizarding World at 17 and not 18?


2. Harry proclaims to the Minister of Magic that he's "Dumbledore's man through and through", yet he fights with Dumbledore about the Draco and Snape conversation. Do you think this is just teenage rebellion or is Harry starting to doubt Dumbledore's judgement?

3. Throughout this chapter I was struck by the number of similarities between the backgrounds of Harry Potter and Tom Riddle, in fact many of Dumbledore's descriptions could have been of Harry, not Tom, for example:

"As an unusually talented and very good-looking orphan, he naturally drew attention and sympathy from the staff almost from the moment of his arrival. He seemed polite, quiet, and thirsty for knowledge."

"As he moved up in the school, he gathered about him a group of dedicated friends..."

It seems to me that Harry is almost the "anti-Tom"---what Tom could have been if he'd "used his powers for good". Discuss your thoughts on this issue.

4. What do you think of the ethics of altering a memory?

5. Why do you think Dumbledore give Harry the assignment to find out the true memory from Slughorn? Does Dumbledore really think he would not be able to get the memory or is this just an exercise for Harry?

[KelRel]

Posted: 7/20/06 at 1:56pm

I think that Rowling is showing these coming og age rituals because she wants to make it clear that these young wizards are growing up and that they will soon be adults. They are about to reach their potential and that can be an exciting and dangerous time. The shift from childhood/teenage years to adulthood is always a tricky one. As for the age on being "of age" being 17, no clue there.

I think that Harry can still be Dumbledore's man and still argue with him. With trust and companionship comes comfortability to question vewi points and judgements. Harry trust Dumbledore, but he knows that he is allowed to come to his own conclusions.

I agree that Harry is an "anti-Tom" and I think that that will come into more importance in the last book. Harry is the mirror image of Tom. (Interesting note- I read on mugglenet that the mirror of erised will be returning in the last book)

There are no ethical reasons to alter a memory. Slughorn did it to save himself from others and from himself. He carries the weight of giving such horrible information to Voldemort.

I think that Dumbldore sent Harry because Harry could do it. Harry needed to learn how to convince others to help him (without the imperious curse ) and Harry needed to be able to become confident in himself and assured in his role as someone who would be helping if not leading the search for clue to the horocruxes and to stopping Voldemort. It was an exercise as well as something that only Harry would have been able to do.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 7/20/06 at 2:43pm

I have no doubt that Harry really is "Dumbledore's man." Keep in mind, he's always doubted Dumbledore's judgment about Snape. But he's resolutely in support of the headmaster. After all, he wouldn't even tell McGonagall where they went when they were searching for Slytherin's locket. That's some fidelity, man. Harry has proven himself fiercely loyal to a select few (Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius), but he isn't blindly loyal, which I think is a good thing.

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/20/06 at 8:45pm

4. I'm interested in the fact that you think it's unethical to alter a memory. We do it all the time.....remember things the way we want them to happen....or at least share our "version" of the memories. That said, I also wonder how accurate the memories one sees in the Pensieve are. I mean, we are seeing events through someone's eyes. When Harry saw his father and Snape back in one of the other books, it seemed pretty clear we were seeing the scene through Snape's eyes. I wonder if we need to take that detail into consideration.

5. I still wonder if Dumbledore only set Harry to this task to teach him a lesson. Dumbledore is such a man of secrecy and wisdom that it seems we never really know what he's thinking!


*****So.....how long do we want before we have questions for a next chapter??? Or has everyone read further and you don't want chapter by chapter questions? Or does someone else want to write questions???

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 7/20/06 at 11:13pm

I agree that Harry and Tom are, well, Good and the Bad. I also agree that Harry is loyal to his friends, but he's not stupid either.

With the memories, we can't be sure, unless they can be verified with someone elses. If two memories don't add up, then there's a problem.

And poor Bumblebee.

I'm curious to see how everything ends. I'm sure I'll read the last book in one day.

How do you think they'll do the Pensieve scenes in the movie? And how right is Mugglenet?

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 12:46am

Mugglenet is a highly reliable source. They don't claim anything is true unless they have documented proof from WB, Bloomsbury, Scholastic or JK Rowling herself.
And I finished the book four days after it came out, so I'm game for more questions anytime! But I would rather do chapter-by-chapter questions. I think it would get too muddled otherwise.

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 12:49am

It's been a while since I read the book. Chapter 17 is the first chapter where Harry learns about Slugworth's foggy memory, right? And it has to do with the young Tom??

[pndmnd]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 4:06pm

Personally I'd prefer to keep it chapter by chapter, but that's just me. How long do we want in between each set of questions? I'd say at least a couple of days for people to post their answers.

I'm not sure that I'd be good at creating all of the questions myself, but if you want to lead, singingwendy, I'd be willing to pm you some ideas.

I have to run now, but will answer chapter 17 questions before the end of the day. I'm so excited that this is back!!

[Atrias]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 4:23pm

Personally, I think coming of age at seventeen might be a device that Rowling's going to use to ensure that Harry leaves the Dursleys with a bang! It would be sort of anticlimactic after he's already beaten Voldemort, right?

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 5:12pm

Could it also be that Harry will be 17 in the last book, and able to "legally' perform magic anywhere when he comes up against Voldemort?

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 5:34pm

I think the age just fits with the plot. If the "coming of age" was 16, then it would've happened in the last book. If it was 18, then it wouldn't happen until next book. That's my reason. What does it say in the UK versions?

(Interesting question: Does JK Rowling "translate", or does some lexicon specialist translate it for her?)

[singingwendy]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 5:49pm

I've never read a British copy (I'm still kicking myself for not picking up the newly released 'Order of the Phoenix" when I was in London). Is the language different in the "British" version as opposed to the "American" version? I know the title of the first book was changed to "Sorcerer's Stone" rather than "Philopsopher's Stone" during it's American release, but I'd just assumed the rest of the books were printed as written. I always felt that they had that very British air about them.......hmmmm....now I'm intrigued!

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 6:31pm

There were many changes to SS, mostly in eliminating British slang, (most notable changing "Mum" to "Mom" and "football" to "soccer") but they've become few and far between. I don't know how much, if any, changes were made in HBP, because the slang sounds largely unchanged.

[Fiction Writer]

Posted: 7/21/06 at 8:35pm

I wish it they kept it the same. The characters are British afterall.

Just think if A CLOCKWORK ORANGE was published differently. I wouldn't like it as much.

[pndmnd]

Posted: 7/23/06 at 5:23pm

OK, I'm finally answering again!

1. Throughout book six, Harry and his friends experience many "coming of age" rituals, such as Apparition Lessons. Do you think Rowling's intent is to have us compare such things to events in the Muggle world or to simply show that all cultures have coming of age rituals? Also, why do you think that wizards are considered adult in the Wizarding World at 17 and not 18?

I think this has pretty much been covered, but I do want to add that part of it might just be to remind us that the wizarding world and their government are ruled differently than the muggle world. Plus the idea that Harry will then be able to practice magic anywhere (and apparate) in his seventh year.

2. Harry proclaims to the Minister of Magic that he's "Dumbledore's man through and through", yet he fights with Dumbledore about the Draco and Snape conversation. Do you think this is just teenage rebellion or is Harry starting to doubt Dumbledore's judgement?

I agree with KelRel that you can be on someone's side without agreeing 100% with everything they do or think. I think that too many people believe things just because someone they admire has taught them or told them what they think. It's important to figure out what you believe for yourself.

3. Throughout this chapter I was struck by the number of similarities between the backgrounds of Harry Potter and Tom Riddle, in fact many of Dumbledore's descriptions could have been of Harry, not Tom, for example:

"As an unusually talented and very good-looking orphan, he naturally drew attention and sympathy from the staff almost from the moment of his arrival. He seemed polite, quiet, and thirsty for knowledge."

"As he moved up in the school, he gathered about him a group of dedicated friends..."

It seems to me that Harry is almost the "anti-Tom"---what Tom could have been if he'd "used his powers for good". Discuss your thoughts on this issue.

Again, I agree that Harry is the juxtaposition for Voldomort--what Tom could have become.

4. What do you think of the ethics of altering a memory?

Along with Wendy, I think that Slughorn using magic to alter his memory isn't really any different than a muggle's memory being different than reality. Because our memories are only from our point of view, they are often times very different from how other people remember them. There was actually a story on NPR about this not too long ago.

5. Why do you think Dumbledore give Harry the assignment to find out the true memory from Slughorn? Does Dumbledore really think he would not be able to get the memory or is this just an exercise for Harry?

I'm still re-reading the book chapter by chapter, but I remember enough of what comes later that I'm having trouble answering this one without going into later chapters. I think the main reason Dumbledore wants Harry to get the memory is the same reason he took Harry to convince Slughorn to take the teaching position. He knows Slughorn's weaknesses, and knows that Harry will have more influence with Slughorn than he himself would.