Immigration Debate... my two cents

[TheDewMonster]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 2:27am

Hey all, I was just wondering what you all felt about the whole immigration debate. I, personally, feel that these illegal immigrants are NOT criminals, for the most part. Most are just trying to survive, to give their families a better life. Aren't we all? These people that successfully come to the U.S. should not be deported [as long as they don't have a criminal record] because just by going through all the trouble to get here, they have proven that they are willing to be good United States citizens. However, the government has all the right to try to limit this illegal immigration. After all, it is against the law and can be detrimental to the safety of out country.

I'd like to conclude that I'm not Mexican or an immigrant for those who may think this view is biased.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 2:46am

Well, since you asked:


Issue 1. I personally feel that these illegal immigrants are NOT criminals, for the most part. Most are just trying to survive, to give their families a better life.

Response: True, but that does not mean they did not break the law to cross the border, without proper documentation and in direct violation of US immigration laws. They are not hard core criminals, but did commit a criminal act to get here.

Issue 2. These people that successfully come to the U.S. should not be deported [as long as they don't have a criminal record] because just by going through all the trouble to get here, they have proven that they are willing to be good United States citizens.

Response: And what non-partisan think tank provided that deep insight? Just because they got over here does not mean that they are qualified, or should be rewarded with citizenship. All it demonstrates to me is that the economies of their home countries are in shambles, and they would rather export this problem to our markets so that these undocumented/illegal immigrants can find ways to help support their home infrastructure by sending money back to help their families survive. Nothing here on its face shows that these people will be good or bad citizens. It only shows that they have been abandoned by their country of birth and see the only true opportunity here in the US.

Issue 3. However, the government has all the right to try to limit this illegal immigration. After all, it is against the law and can be detrimental to the safety of out country.

Response: The sad truth is that big business likes the flow of illegal immigrants, they want to keep downward pressure on wages. Certain sectors of our economy benefit from the inflow of illegal/undocumented workers, such as those employers hiring manual labor businesses, construction, trucking, farming, meat packing . . . They want to keep wages low, so they encourage a free er boarder in order to continue to suppress wages.

And, for the Record: In most cases, illegal immigrants are not doing jobs that most Americans will not do. No, they are doing jobs that most American will not do for a wage that is below the poverty level.

No one is giving an honest debate about what is going on, the costs, benefits and viable solutions. Just more puffery and further evidence of the ongoing failure to protect our southern borders. I am not quite sure what the answer is or can be. There must be some recognition of the service provided by those here illegally, but at the same time, not rewarding those who broke the law with beneficial treatment over someone else who went through the process.



Updated On: 4/12/06 at 02:46 AM

[TheDewMonster]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 2:59am

1. True, but that does not mean they did not break the law to cross the border, without proper documentation and in accordance with the processes many others wait and pay for. They are not hard core criminals, but did commit a criminal act to get here.

My response: When i said criminal, i meant bad people. They are generally trying to survive and live a better lifestyle rather than try to harm the United States. Poor wording on my part


2. Just because they got over here means that they are qualified, or should be rewarded with citizenship? No, what it demonstrates is that the economies of their home countries are in shambles, and they would rather export this problem to our markets so that these undocumented/illegal immigrants can find ways to help support their home infrastructure by sending money back to help their families survive. Nothing here on its face shows that these people will be good or bad citizens. It only shows that they have been abandoned by their country of birth and see the only true opportunity here in the US. We it demonstrates a desire to also look to the US as your home is a whole different discussion.

My Response: OK, that wasnt a very good reason for why they shouldnt be deported. I feel that they shouldnt be deported because they are here for humble reasons [for the most part]. They would like to live a better life, as we all do.


3. a)The Bush Administration has no long term plan to realistically deal with this problem because the one sector of the US economy that benefits from the inflow of illegal/undocumented workers is big, manual labor businesses. Trucking. Farming. Meat packing. They want to keep wages low, so they encourage a free er boarder in order to continue to suppress wages.

My Response: Why are you implying that I'm for the Bush administration? I am presenting my views without stating whether im a democrat or republican. I feel that picking sides is the wrong approach to this debate.

b)In most cases, illegal immigrants are not doing jobs that most Americans will do. No, they are doing jobs that most American would do for a wage that is below the poverty level.

My response: Most of the time, these immigrants are performing jobs that ordinary americans (that can easily obtain legal jobs) would not do. For the most part, they don't have a constant job. This does not hurt the economy as much as you would think. All Americans have the ability to find work. Another major point is that we are not running out of jobs. All you have to do is go to McDonalds and fill out an application...

c)No one is giving an honest debate about what is going on, the costs, benefits and viable solutions. Just more puffery and further evidence of the ongoing failure to protect our southern borders.

my response: i couldnt agree more.

Updated On: 4/12/06 at 02:59 AM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 3:12am

I was not implying you were a Bush Supporter. Only that big business is in bed with Bush on these issues.

And, I re-worded one of my answers to be a bit more articulate:

Issue 3. However, the government has all the right to try to limit this illegal immigration. After all, it is against the law and can be detrimental to the safety of out country.

Response: The sad truth is that big business likes the flow of illegal immigrants, they want to keep downward pressure on wages. Certain sectors of our economy benefit from the inflow of illegal/undocumented workers, such as those employers hiring manual labor businesses, construction, trucking, farming, meat packing . . . They want to keep wages low, so they encourage a an unprotected brorder to continue to suppress wages.

And, for the Record: In most cases, illegal immigrants are not doing jobs that most Americans will not do. No, they are doing jobs that most American will not do for a wage that is below what the illegal or undocumented worker will accept. Construction, truck driver, meat packer . . . these jobs are being displaced by "undocument" workers when there are many others who would be more than happy to have those jobs at a fair wage. Immigration is artificially depressing wages and skewing the whole issue. We are running out of entry level blue collar jobs, which are quickly being replaced by low-income immigrans staffing such jobs, because it is a cheaper work force to manage. It is not that we won't do the jobs, we just want to be paid a fair wage.


And, that is it for me tonight. Happy Wednesday everyone.
Updated On: 4/12/06 at 03:12 AM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 3:16am

You joined a Broadway message board less than 3 hours ago, just to start political discussions on the off-topic board. I mean, my god, you haven't even posted who your favorite Elphaba is yet.

[TheDewMonster]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 3:31am

Well, to be honest, I'm not a big fan of broadway. I joined these forums because I know that most of the people here are from NYC, which is mostly liberals. Although i don't like to classify myself, I fit into the conservative stance more than the liberal. I just wanted to share views with you guys

I dont really see the problem in that. after all, this is the offtopic board

[knows_too_much]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 3:31am

orangeskittles
I was getting really bored with this thread really fast, but you made my night!

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 4:25am

*Gasp* This probably means he doesn't even know who Elphaba is!!!

[Elphaba]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 9:47am

shall I enlighten him, LOLOLOL

[Elphaba]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 9:57am

my .02

1. rather ridiculous to join a Broadway board, and have this be your first post....especially if you don't like Broadway, especially when there are other boards you could join.

2. America is built on immigrants, legal or otherwise, and many people forget that....I'm sure sweetQ forgot that when she was screaming in other posts that they should "go back where they belong"..or when she walked away from a new neighbor who was speaking Spanish......just damn rude.etc........ALL OF OUR relatives that came here came from somewhere else.

3. As youwant has said they do the jobs we won't.....which is pretty sad when you think about it. I certainly do not want to work as a dishwasher in a restaurant, clean rich white peoples houses, clean toilets.....contruction, meat-packer.

The attitude so many Americans have to make them speak english or send them home is so damn ridiculous......they also have a right to speak their native tongue....just as I have a right to observe my heritage......

I do not know what the answer is, but it must be fair to all, because if it's not, it's going to get ugly in the streets, and you have many white-supremecist groups just waiting for that.......

this country is going to Hell in a handbasket, and now with this whole Iran thing, it'll only get worse.......

God is no longer blessing America, that much is obvious......and frankly with how weve been acting recently....we don't deserve it anyway.....

[My Fair Lady]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:09am

"The attitude so many Americans have to make them speak english or send them home is so damn ridiculous......they also have a right to speak their native tongue....just as I have a right to observe my heritage......"

Everyone has a right to observe their heritage and speak their native tongue, but if you're going to move to this country, you should learn English and be able to speak it somewhat well. It is, after all, the most commonly spoken language in this country, and if you're going to live here, you should know it. I don't think immigrants who can't speak English should be deported solely because of that, but I do think that in order to obtain citizenship, you must be able to speak English with some level of fluency.


My personal opinion on the actual issue at hand...
I think that illegal immigrants shouldn't be deported, but should have to become citizens (after they learn some English, of course). Right now these people are living in our country tax-free, using all the benefits we as Americans get after paying our taxes. There is no reason for the government to be spending money on the healthcare of these illegal aliens when they're not paying them back. They should have to become citizens so they can pay taxes, like real Americans. That would also provide a benefit to them, as it would be illegal for their bosses to pay them under minimum wage.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:13am

They should have to become citizens so they can pay taxes, like real Americans


that statement really burns me, as after almost 53 years of life I am still into a quandry as to what a "real" American is, or for that matter what a "real" man is, or a "real fill-in-the-blank" is...........

anyway I won't get sucked into this again....there's already other theads on this....didn't need more......

post happily you all, I'm over it......

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:15am

Why is anyone engaging this poster who only joined BWW to annoy liberals?

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:21am

I say we deport him!

[Calvin]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:22am

That's right. Either speak Broadwayish, or go back home.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:26am

Gay gay cosmo musical number dance spin tap turn homo.

did I do a good approximation of Broadwayish speak?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:31am

i hereby christen bwaysinger, the one and only "tap turn homo."

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:35am

I fully embrace that name, Papa.
And, in my first political act as Tap Turn Homo, I officially declare new posters cannot post political threads.
Thank you and goodnight!
*taps and turns*

[Calvin]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:35am

You also have to pass the citizenship test. Questions like:

Ali MacGraw is:
a) One of the greatest actors of all time
b) Pretty, but untalented
c) The basketcase chick from The Breakfast Club
d) A cartoon horse that maintained law and order in the Old West

(eta -- I guess my name must have cosmo somewhere in it ) Updated On: 4/12/06 at 10:35 AM

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:37am

d) A cartoon horse that maintained law and order in the Old West

AND she was in Love Story.

Is that right? Am I in? Am I Broadwayish?

[Calvin]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:41am

Correct! Look -- RobbO even took a fan photo with her.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:42am

calvin for that brilliant list with its reference to ol' quickdraw earns you the new title of "cosmo spin homo."

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:44am

Quickdraw - Ali McGraw

...same nostrils.

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:46am

Wasn't that Ali McGraw chick on some law show with a dancing baby?

[Calvin]

Posted: 4/12/06 at 10:52am

No, that was Gavin McCreel.