Let's fire some gays! — Page 4
#77
Posted: 9/23/04 at 5:54pm
Oprah.com of course!
Go for it!
Go for it!
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#79
Posted: 9/23/04 at 5:56pm
We need to develop a website.
alright...i'm off for the evening.
love to all!
alright...i'm off for the evening.
love to all!
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
#80
Posted: 9/23/04 at 5:56pm
mutt, i was talking about causes not being served by violence. individuals are an entirely different thing.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#81
Posted: 9/23/04 at 5:58pm
Matt_G says: "Yes, interesting to hear someone who has threatened me physically talk out against violence."
Matt, if someone on this board threatened you physically, don't keep it to yourself. That's something everyone should know.
Matt, if someone on this board threatened you physically, don't keep it to yourself. That's something everyone should know.
#82
Posted: 9/23/04 at 6:05pm
robbiej--I'm with you.
#83
Posted: 9/23/04 at 6:08pm
"No, in the case of Iraq, it bred nothing. Peace was ignored."
When was there peace in Iraq? Did I miss something?
"So if an angry mob comes to hang me from a tree, I should hold their hand and pray for peace. Hope someone organizes a protest after I'm dead? If things keep sliding backwards, we're headed back on that path."
-I didn't know you were so fatalistic. If a mob comes for you, you give me a call. I doubt it will happen, though. But, as I said, if it does, you call me.
"Sorry, but if you want peaceful advances for equal rights, then you have a seriously long wait. Probably after your lifetime because they have obviously stopped working. I'm not talking about bombing offices and killing people. I'm talking about noisy riots that make us heard. Those marches on Washington and bike rides and marathon runs are just not rocking the nation."
-Wow. You're sounding more and more like a Republican president I know. Maybe this internalized hate has sunk more deeply than we know. We don't have to wait long. How long? Not long. How long? Not long.
"Queer Eye is cute and funny and straight guys get loads of free stuff, but it is not changing the minds of anyone who thinks that they can steamroll us and get away with it. Because they are getting away with it. THAT is what they remember."
-I actually have friends back where I used to live in Cali who used to vote republican, but since and b/c of Queer Eye and my coming out, now vote against any hateful Washington-ites. I feel ok about that...and I suggest you start seeing the one life at a time. Remember, we used to get beat up a lot more.
When was there peace in Iraq? Did I miss something?
"So if an angry mob comes to hang me from a tree, I should hold their hand and pray for peace. Hope someone organizes a protest after I'm dead? If things keep sliding backwards, we're headed back on that path."
-I didn't know you were so fatalistic. If a mob comes for you, you give me a call. I doubt it will happen, though. But, as I said, if it does, you call me.
"Sorry, but if you want peaceful advances for equal rights, then you have a seriously long wait. Probably after your lifetime because they have obviously stopped working. I'm not talking about bombing offices and killing people. I'm talking about noisy riots that make us heard. Those marches on Washington and bike rides and marathon runs are just not rocking the nation."
-Wow. You're sounding more and more like a Republican president I know. Maybe this internalized hate has sunk more deeply than we know. We don't have to wait long. How long? Not long. How long? Not long.
"Queer Eye is cute and funny and straight guys get loads of free stuff, but it is not changing the minds of anyone who thinks that they can steamroll us and get away with it. Because they are getting away with it. THAT is what they remember."
-I actually have friends back where I used to live in Cali who used to vote republican, but since and b/c of Queer Eye and my coming out, now vote against any hateful Washington-ites. I feel ok about that...and I suggest you start seeing the one life at a time. Remember, we used to get beat up a lot more.
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'"
-- unknown
#84
Posted: 9/23/04 at 6:10pm
PS- I really love you all... (Maybe with the exception of PalPukey... everything that nerd writes makes me puke in my mouth.) When the revolution begins... I will fight along side you.
Hamlet's father.
#85
Posted: 9/23/04 at 6:13pm
I don't know about this non-paying of taxes thing. From the point of view of someone who is neutral or slightly hostile on instinct towards the issue of gay rights, it could look like you're just trying to hold on to your money. It's not the same as walking to work instead of taking the bus, because that's a sacrifice. It's hard. Not paying your taxes is easy. If I'd had more than 6 non-continuous hours of sleep in the past 36 hours, I'd try to think of something better. As it is, right now I need all my brain power for (ha!) a political science essay. I'll think about this, though, later on.
#86
Posted: 9/23/04 at 6:14pm
Also, a quick history lesson. =)
UNITED STATES HISTORY
1924: First U.S. GLB group: "Society for Human Rights," chartered in
Chicago, devoted to public education and law reform. Quickly crushed by
local police.
1950: First durable U.S. gay rights group: Mattachine Society. Founded in
Los Angeles, modeled after U.S. Communist Party. Named after a medieval
French society of bachelors who conducted dances and rituals, wearing masks,
during the Feast of Fools.
1952-1953: Mattachine mailed questionaires to candidates and circulated
leaflets. Also began publishing a monthly magazine, and defended its right
to mail the magazine in the U.S. Supreme Court--successfully.
1955: First durable U.S. lesbian rights group: Daughters of Bilitis. Formed
in San Francisco, named after a book by turn of the century author Pierre
Louy that included love poems between women. The idea of DOB was to sound
like Daughters of the American Revolution or "a poetry club."
1961: Washington D.C. chapter of Mattachine formed, begins making clear
that 1) homosexuality is not the result of mental illness, and 2) that
homosexuals, not doctors and lawyers, are the experts on homosexuality.
1964: First White House demonstration against G-L employment
discrimination.
Clearly, the U.S. had an open, functioning gay rights movement at least
five years (perhaps 27 years) before Stonewall. While the "Gay Liberation"
movement was very different in tone, tactics and numbers, U.S. gay rights
activism far pre-dated 1969.
UNITED STATES HISTORY
1924: First U.S. GLB group: "Society for Human Rights," chartered in
Chicago, devoted to public education and law reform. Quickly crushed by
local police.
1950: First durable U.S. gay rights group: Mattachine Society. Founded in
Los Angeles, modeled after U.S. Communist Party. Named after a medieval
French society of bachelors who conducted dances and rituals, wearing masks,
during the Feast of Fools.
1952-1953: Mattachine mailed questionaires to candidates and circulated
leaflets. Also began publishing a monthly magazine, and defended its right
to mail the magazine in the U.S. Supreme Court--successfully.
1955: First durable U.S. lesbian rights group: Daughters of Bilitis. Formed
in San Francisco, named after a book by turn of the century author Pierre
Louy that included love poems between women. The idea of DOB was to sound
like Daughters of the American Revolution or "a poetry club."
1961: Washington D.C. chapter of Mattachine formed, begins making clear
that 1) homosexuality is not the result of mental illness, and 2) that
homosexuals, not doctors and lawyers, are the experts on homosexuality.
1964: First White House demonstration against G-L employment
discrimination.
Clearly, the U.S. had an open, functioning gay rights movement at least
five years (perhaps 27 years) before Stonewall. While the "Gay Liberation"
movement was very different in tone, tactics and numbers, U.S. gay rights
activism far pre-dated 1969.
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'"
-- unknown
#87
Posted: 9/23/04 at 6:21pm
PalJoey, I did let everyone know when Papalovesmambo threatened me. I let the moderators know, also but nothing was done about it.
"Noah, someday we'll talk again. But there's things we'll never say. That sorrow deep inside you. It inside me, too. And it never go away. You be okay. You'll learn how to lose things..."
#88
Posted: 9/23/04 at 7:18pm
My dear CKeaton, who so cleverly said "PalPukey... everything that nerd writes makes me puke in my mouth," I remind you of Rob's words and await your apology for your name-calling and personal attack:
===
Just a general reminder as to the two main guidelines regarding what will get a post deleted on this board...
1) Please post with courtesy (and common sense) - no use of profanity, obscenities, or name calling.
2) No personal attacks - we all have different opinions - disagree with the view, not with the person.
===
===
Just a general reminder as to the two main guidelines regarding what will get a post deleted on this board...
1) Please post with courtesy (and common sense) - no use of profanity, obscenities, or name calling.
2) No personal attacks - we all have different opinions - disagree with the view, not with the person.
===
#89
Posted: 9/23/04 at 7:25pm
We can go through the history of your posts and find plenty of violations of those rules... especially in your blustery entrance earlier this year. That's back when I first fell in love with you.
I disagree with your views... violently.
Perhaps I shouldn't have called you a "nerd". My apologies to the moderators for crossing the line... I shant do it again.
Glass houses, PoopFlowy, glass houses. OK, maybe just one more time.
I disagree with your views... violently.
Perhaps I shouldn't have called you a "nerd". My apologies to the moderators for crossing the line... I shant do it again.
Glass houses, PoopFlowy, glass houses. OK, maybe just one more time.
Hamlet's father.
#90
Posted: 9/23/04 at 7:25pm
ckeaton can believe whatever he wants -- for the rest of us (the majority here), DO SOMETHING!
We have about 40 days until this election is held. Go to www.johnkerry.com and see how you can help. If you live in a swing state, please don't sit this election out. Way too much is at stake.
We have about 40 days until this election is held. Go to www.johnkerry.com and see how you can help. If you live in a swing state, please don't sit this election out. Way too much is at stake.
Stop worrying about what I'm doing -- focus instead on what you're eating.
#91
Posted: 9/23/04 at 7:27pm
Donate $$, Volunteer your time... participate!! Whoever your candidate.
I believe in that... I really do.
I believe in that... I really do.
Hamlet's father.
#92
Posted: 9/23/04 at 10:15pm
"When was there peace in Iraq? Did I miss something?"
Obviously, you missed my point. The peaceful demonstrations did not breed peace. They were the single biggest worldwide example that peaceful demonstrations are not effective in the face of violence. Had the world stood around and lit candles, do you think Hitler would have decided to stop exterminating the Jews? Sure, that's an extreme, but all it takes is one influential leader to wipe out over 6,000,000 people.
"Wow. You're sounding more and more like a Republican president I know. Maybe this internalized hate has sunk more deeply than we know. We don't have to wait long. How long? Not long. How long? Not long."
I'm not exactly sure how NOT wanting to bomb or kill would compare with the actions of said President, but we are facing serious threats here of the government encouraging discrimination. What makes you sure we don't have to wait long? According to your history lesson, it's 80+ years so far...
And yes, there is a very intense internalized hate. Hatred for the killers of Matthew Shepard, Paul Broussard, and a personal friend of mine whose murderers were never found and I have hatred for Presidents who set an example of discrimination as being acceptable.
"I actually have friends back where I used to live in Cali who used to vote republican, but since and b/c of Queer Eye and my coming out, now vote against any hateful Washington-ites. I feel ok about that...and I suggest you start seeing the one life at a time. Remember, we used to get beat up a lot more."
Yes, we did get beat up a lot more, but now we're backsliding and this administration is going to allow us to get beat up again. Gay bashing has always been an example of violence not breeding violence, but not breeding peace, either. That's wonderful about your friends, but what about all those who don't get cable. The ones who refuse to watch Queer Eye because they're too closed minded. Queer Eye may have reached a few people, but obviously not enough. Like I said, the people who need to be reached the most are the ones who ignore peaceful action. They are the majority and should Bush succeed, they will only grow larger in numbers.
As for seeing one life at a time, I've been doing that for 34 years. Why settle for one at a time? How long do you think it will take to count the grains of sand on a beach?
The funny thing is, I haven't been discriminated against since I was in high school. Quite the opposite. I've made friends with many people who were previously homophobic who have since turned an about-face including my own right-wing Republican Baptist Rush-is-Right brother who told me years ago I was condemned to Hell. And I have never been a violent person. But then, I've never been this scared for my safety before. I don't think I'll be the only one who'll feel this way when backed into a corner. The corner is closer now than it was just a few years ago. It's very easy to suggest to strangers how to live their lives, yet it is rarely taken well. Notice I never suggested the same.
So we disagree. No harm done. It just shows there are opposing views even on the same side.
PS - My parents used to live in Cali.
Obviously, you missed my point. The peaceful demonstrations did not breed peace. They were the single biggest worldwide example that peaceful demonstrations are not effective in the face of violence. Had the world stood around and lit candles, do you think Hitler would have decided to stop exterminating the Jews? Sure, that's an extreme, but all it takes is one influential leader to wipe out over 6,000,000 people.
"Wow. You're sounding more and more like a Republican president I know. Maybe this internalized hate has sunk more deeply than we know. We don't have to wait long. How long? Not long. How long? Not long."
I'm not exactly sure how NOT wanting to bomb or kill would compare with the actions of said President, but we are facing serious threats here of the government encouraging discrimination. What makes you sure we don't have to wait long? According to your history lesson, it's 80+ years so far...
And yes, there is a very intense internalized hate. Hatred for the killers of Matthew Shepard, Paul Broussard, and a personal friend of mine whose murderers were never found and I have hatred for Presidents who set an example of discrimination as being acceptable.
"I actually have friends back where I used to live in Cali who used to vote republican, but since and b/c of Queer Eye and my coming out, now vote against any hateful Washington-ites. I feel ok about that...and I suggest you start seeing the one life at a time. Remember, we used to get beat up a lot more."
Yes, we did get beat up a lot more, but now we're backsliding and this administration is going to allow us to get beat up again. Gay bashing has always been an example of violence not breeding violence, but not breeding peace, either. That's wonderful about your friends, but what about all those who don't get cable. The ones who refuse to watch Queer Eye because they're too closed minded. Queer Eye may have reached a few people, but obviously not enough. Like I said, the people who need to be reached the most are the ones who ignore peaceful action. They are the majority and should Bush succeed, they will only grow larger in numbers.
As for seeing one life at a time, I've been doing that for 34 years. Why settle for one at a time? How long do you think it will take to count the grains of sand on a beach?
The funny thing is, I haven't been discriminated against since I was in high school. Quite the opposite. I've made friends with many people who were previously homophobic who have since turned an about-face including my own right-wing Republican Baptist Rush-is-Right brother who told me years ago I was condemned to Hell. And I have never been a violent person. But then, I've never been this scared for my safety before. I don't think I'll be the only one who'll feel this way when backed into a corner. The corner is closer now than it was just a few years ago. It's very easy to suggest to strangers how to live their lives, yet it is rarely taken well. Notice I never suggested the same.
So we disagree. No harm done. It just shows there are opposing views even on the same side.
PS - My parents used to live in Cali.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#93
Posted: 9/23/04 at 10:42pm
Mister Matt - You're not the only one who's scared, and you're not alone in your corner. What we need is to recognize the similarities we have - all humans, but right now gays in particular. I have had ENOUGH of people using their individual choice of religion to try and determine what life for the rest of us should be.
Touchme - you want to look at history? So do I. And frankly, even though I'm a gay man, I don't see this point in time as really having to do specifically with our rights. I really see it as the confrontational moment when we as a society decide whether or not we're going to allow our tendency toward mythology continue to determine our social policy. I've said before, and I'll say again, that this whole attitude about gay rights is only so important because of how it rocks the foundation of people's belief system - and if they don't have their beliefs, then they're left alone with their fears.
And you know what? I DON'T CARE! Because while they are huddled in their dark caves yelling out directions to the rest of us, I'm out here in the sunlight TRYING to live the life I was given. I am confronting the same questions as everyone else on the planet - who am I? why am I? and so on. BUT, I'm not interferring with anyone else while I'm doing it. And while it may be intellectually stimulating and gratifying to take an overview that sees the slow march toward acceptance, I am living my life NOW - and my clock isn't stopped waiting for the ignorance to cease.
My life is being negatively affected, and to sit back silently and know that "not long" from now things will be better is spiritual suicide. If they can raise their voices against me, then by THEIR GOD I can raise mine back - and I have the strength of TRUTH on my side.
Touchme - you want to look at history? So do I. And frankly, even though I'm a gay man, I don't see this point in time as really having to do specifically with our rights. I really see it as the confrontational moment when we as a society decide whether or not we're going to allow our tendency toward mythology continue to determine our social policy. I've said before, and I'll say again, that this whole attitude about gay rights is only so important because of how it rocks the foundation of people's belief system - and if they don't have their beliefs, then they're left alone with their fears.
And you know what? I DON'T CARE! Because while they are huddled in their dark caves yelling out directions to the rest of us, I'm out here in the sunlight TRYING to live the life I was given. I am confronting the same questions as everyone else on the planet - who am I? why am I? and so on. BUT, I'm not interferring with anyone else while I'm doing it. And while it may be intellectually stimulating and gratifying to take an overview that sees the slow march toward acceptance, I am living my life NOW - and my clock isn't stopped waiting for the ignorance to cease.
My life is being negatively affected, and to sit back silently and know that "not long" from now things will be better is spiritual suicide. If they can raise their voices against me, then by THEIR GOD I can raise mine back - and I have the strength of TRUTH on my side.
#94
Posted: 9/24/04 at 7:56am
>>>And, you'll notice that Bush didn't do a number on Osama. Why? He loves his friends.
so hey- if osama was gay, would he be dead/in prison by now?
(thought this thread needed a bump)
btw i'm working on a play right now, that takes how in the early days of Christianity, many people misused the Bible to suit their own purposes went against the example of Jesus to commit horrible acts- and paralleling it to the things that are going on now. If Jesus was mad in his last days when he went to his church and saw people selling fake rolexs and bootlegs, how mad do you think he'd be now?
so hey- if osama was gay, would he be dead/in prison by now?
(thought this thread needed a bump)
btw i'm working on a play right now, that takes how in the early days of Christianity, many people misused the Bible to suit their own purposes went against the example of Jesus to commit horrible acts- and paralleling it to the things that are going on now. If Jesus was mad in his last days when he went to his church and saw people selling fake rolexs and bootlegs, how mad do you think he'd be now?
#95
Posted: 9/24/04 at 10:48am
Mr Matt,
As usual, you make good points. But, in retort, I must say a few things:
-Hitler wouldn't have come into power without violence. If you want more Hitlerian leaders, feel free to use violence. Non-violence would have kept him out of power. Yes, violence worked tog et him out of power, but we don't know what else may have worked, too. Most political scientists believe a non-violence movement could have worked just as well to stop him. I can site you hunreds of sources on that, if you ask for it.
-You mentioned that essentially hateful people are the majority. That is just not true. In fact, republicans aren't even the majority. And, most people who call them selves republicans aren't really republicans...except by name alone. I wouldn't get into the mindset of everyone is against me. It just ain't the case.
-Your parents lived in Cali? Where abouts? I went to undergrad in San Diego and graduate school at UCLA.
-Raise your voice, not your hand.
As usual, you make good points. But, in retort, I must say a few things:
-Hitler wouldn't have come into power without violence. If you want more Hitlerian leaders, feel free to use violence. Non-violence would have kept him out of power. Yes, violence worked tog et him out of power, but we don't know what else may have worked, too. Most political scientists believe a non-violence movement could have worked just as well to stop him. I can site you hunreds of sources on that, if you ask for it.
-You mentioned that essentially hateful people are the majority. That is just not true. In fact, republicans aren't even the majority. And, most people who call them selves republicans aren't really republicans...except by name alone. I wouldn't get into the mindset of everyone is against me. It just ain't the case.
-Your parents lived in Cali? Where abouts? I went to undergrad in San Diego and graduate school at UCLA.
-Raise your voice, not your hand.
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'"
-- unknown
#96
Posted: 9/24/04 at 12:27pm
Well, I never said that hateful people are the majority. What I was essentially saying is that close-minded and ignorant people make up the majority, which allows the behaviors of Bush to succeed. If they weren't the majority, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Louisiana wouldn't have their state constitutional amendment. The majority of the population is not in the large more liberally-minded cities. They are spread out through thousands of miles of smaller cities and towns. What do they see? They see gays trying to get married and the government overtunes the rulings. They see Bush's propsal for a Constitutional Amendment. They see Louisiana's amendment to ban gay marriage. What don't they see? The opposing reactions to these events. Why? Because the reaction is not strong enough to be considered news-worthy. It is rarely strong enough to make the local news of a city as big as, say, Chicago, let alone be considered for smaller local stations in the South or Midwest. I wrote my congressmen about the proposed Amendment (as well as every friend I contacted). His reply: "I appreciate your feelings, but I do not approve of gay marriage." I wrote back asking why several times. No reply. He knows he's in the majority and he can afford to ignore this peaceful display of opposition because he knows NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.
If non-violence would have worked to stop Hitler, I would love to hear about it. I wonder how many millions more lives would have been lost considering the decades it takes just to allow one group equal rights.
Anyway, I don't know what part of Cali my parents were in. I never visited them there, but I will ask them. They lived 3 years Cali, 2 years in Cartagena, and 5 years in Buenos Aires. I did visit them in Buenos Aires and we went to the most beautiful spot in the world - Foz de Iguazu.
If non-violence would have worked to stop Hitler, I would love to hear about it. I wonder how many millions more lives would have been lost considering the decades it takes just to allow one group equal rights.
Anyway, I don't know what part of Cali my parents were in. I never visited them there, but I will ask them. They lived 3 years Cali, 2 years in Cartagena, and 5 years in Buenos Aires. I did visit them in Buenos Aires and we went to the most beautiful spot in the world - Foz de Iguazu.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#97
Posted: 9/24/04 at 1:39pm
Ghandhi's answer about Hitler:
http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/hitler.htm
David McReynold's and the philosophy of non-violence:
http://www.nonviolence.org/issues/philo-nv4.php
Gene Sharp of the Albert Einstein Institute:
"A ruler’s power is ultimately dependent on support from the people he would rule. His moral authority, economic resources, transport system, government bureaucracy, army and police -- to name but a few sources of his power -- rest finally upon the cooperation and assistance of other people. If there is general conformity, the ruler is powerful. But people do not always do what their rulers would like them to do.”
The point of non-violence is to win all battles, not just the on at hand now.
http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/hitler.htm
David McReynold's and the philosophy of non-violence:
http://www.nonviolence.org/issues/philo-nv4.php
Gene Sharp of the Albert Einstein Institute:
"A ruler’s power is ultimately dependent on support from the people he would rule. His moral authority, economic resources, transport system, government bureaucracy, army and police -- to name but a few sources of his power -- rest finally upon the cooperation and assistance of other people. If there is general conformity, the ruler is powerful. But people do not always do what their rulers would like them to do.”
The point of non-violence is to win all battles, not just the on at hand now.
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'"
-- unknown
#98
Posted: 9/24/04 at 1:53pm
So, as a secularist, am I left out of the non-violence movement?
#99
Posted: 9/24/04 at 1:56pm
I suppose it depends on what you mean by a secularist.
If you mean fighting against religion by any means necessary, then you're not ok.
However, if you just mean being philosophically and (therefore) vocally opposed to superstition inspired by religion, I think you're ok.
If you mean fighting against religion by any means necessary, then you're not ok.
However, if you just mean being philosophically and (therefore) vocally opposed to superstition inspired by religion, I think you're ok.
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'"
-- unknown
#100
Posted: 9/24/04 at 2:00pm
Well now, if I were 'fighting against religion by any means necessary' I were hardly be part of the non-violence movement.
I get the feeling, sometimes, that the point of the non-violent movement being espoused is to have a 'victory' of religious thought prevailing over society.
I get the feeling, sometimes, that the point of the non-violent movement being espoused is to have a 'victory' of religious thought prevailing over society.
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