Madonna's MDNA Album & Singles Chat- Page 9

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/27/12 at 9:47pm

Love Spent and Masterpiece are pretentious? OK

Is that what you thought I said? It was his comment I found pretentious. Well, it is pretentious by definition.

If I explain why I don't like certain aspects of Madonna's music, I'm only explaining myself, not trying to convince others. but that ridiculous comment from whatsisname at Boy Culture calls my own opinion into question and attempts to invalidate it. That is very pretentious, not to mention ludicrous. So I'm just surprised you agree with it. I could explain exactly why I don't agree with his statement, but clearly, he's not interested and has already shut anyone down who disagrees.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 12:45am

I really enjoy the album, but am disappointed by aspects. Anyway, I'm scared to re-join the fray, but...

"Isn't 'hello' and 'Turn Up the Radio' the same producer anyway?
So the sound would be similar, no? "

(I love Hello, though more because it made Dragonette, my absolutely fave Canadian pop/dance band who did some great tracks for Cyndi--and I've had the pleasure to hang out with a few times--, into somewhat kinda known names outside of the country, than for Martin's production).

I like Radio, though not as much as some, but I do hear aspects of Hello for sure in it--much more than in the other tracks Martin did for Madonna, so I wouldn't be shocked if that was a conscious choice to do something similar. I think the argument that it's by the same producer excuses it--yes, for example, a lot of William Orbit's non Madonna work has a similar sound, and a ton of, say, Stargate's work with Ne Yo, Nicki Minag and Rhianna is pretty interchangeable in production style, but in this case I think comparing them is definitely apt.

Oh and Love Spent is a huge low point for me. I love Masterpiece though :P And I still wish (most) of the bonus disc tracks had just been mixed into the standard album, but...

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 2:28am

"That's the phenomenon I talked about where I said the enthusiasm was reminding me of the Stones fans and reviewers trying to convince themselves that "Goats Head Soup" was as good as "Exile on Main Street." Sometimes, after the adrenaline rush of getting your hands on a brand new release dies down, you can actually assess what you're hearing with a clearer head. "

You are obsessed with that Stones album!! Can't you use an example someone my age could actually relate to? I'm not 54...

That was meant to be humorous just because you have mentioned it a lot--but I suppose it does make sense. Honestly, I think this kind of reaction is pretty inevitable with any rock, and particularly pop star. I can't really think of an example where that has not happened--I mean I can think of well received critical comebacks like Turner in 1984, although many also felt she had lost her edge and now was doing very polished pop with popular 80s producers--though in her case, like Madonna she had largely worked with fairly well known producers from the get go.

I mean that may seem like a passive argument--and I do think it's harder in a way when you're aiming at a pop/dance crowd which tends to be younger (although really if you look at the dance charts, what charts is acts that have large gay loyalty--hence the Pet Shop Boys getting an astounding number of top ten dance hits in the US when they haven't charted there since the 80s, or charted much in the UK even in the past ten years, or Kylie Minogue doing well in the US dance charts when she's barely a mainstream image there--even if in some respects I wish Madonna would age slightly more the way Kylie is going but they're two different artists despite some shared fan base--or my beloved Donna Summer who has had a good dozen number one dance chart songs in the past 15 years--and has a record for dance chart numbers ones in every decade from the 70s on, who is completely irelevant to the mainstream.

Anyway I'm rambling even more than usual. And it's true that, even more than any of the acts I've mentioned, Madonna has has managed to be, if not ever truly experimental, at least on the cutting edge of dance/pop trends for a LOT longer than *any* artist I can think of. And while I am mixed (much more positive than not) on MDNA, and certainly find it a happier mix of her talents with modern pop techniques than Hard Candy was, I personally as a fan, am pleased with it.

I do think that one "negative" review mentioned, which despite a C rating wasn't all that negative I felt, had some very strong points, one being how increasingly hard it is to try to connect who Madonna portrays herself as a persona to her music. And I guess I also feel that doesn't matter much to me--her interviews have made me role my eyes, more than nod my head, for as long as I can remember, but more than a huge number of artists, her image has always been so integral to her that I can see it being a valid criticism.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 2:33am

Oh and back to the Stones--I went through a (brief) fan phase as a late teen. I thought the common belief now was Exhile got a very mixed reaction when it came out, and took some time to be considered perhaps their masterpiece? And I always felt it wasn't till Some Girls that people started saying it was their new "just as good" album...

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 7:59am

Matt first of 'whatsisname; is Matthew Rettenmund, and i dont think for a second he is pretentious, in fact i know he is not as i know him well since i am adapting his novel Boy Culture to the stage. He happens to be someone who i find is very honest and very down to earth and who's opinion's i think are spot on. I also do not think his comment made him sound pretentious and i agree 100 percent with it. The songs he picked out represent the songs/attitudes of a Madonna that fans fell in love with in the first place. Masterpiece is the classic Madonna ballad, Gang Bang is the edgy Madonna/the character she plays or invents for songs like that (Erotica, Their of Hearts etc), Love Spent is a great dance song with a deeper meaning as she has done many time. He is not saying you should love all of the songs, he is saying that the album is such a mix of her past genres as well as new that if you can not find something on it you like then he is wondering what you ever liked about her in the first place.

[tazber]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:26am

Still, it's a ridiculous comment that precludes any sense of how she's changed as an artist (for better or worse).

In a way he insults her by insinuating that she's just rehashing what she's always done with no originality or creative impetus. It's the same old same old, right? So if you liked it when she did it last time, why not now?

I wouldn't say it's pretentious, just stupid.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 9:28am

he is saying that the album is such a mix of her past genres as well as new that if you can not find something on it you like then he is wondering what you ever liked about her in the first place.

Perhaps what I liked about her before was more originality and better music. Which is a valid opinion because it's a personal opinion. That's what makes the comment pretentious. It attempts to invalidate anyone else's personal opinion. Matthew Rettenmund may be a lovely person, but his generalizations are not. There are some songs on the album I liked and I said as much, but anyone can hate the entire album and still have enjoyed her albums in the past. Because that was then, this is now, and people are different, and opinions are subjective. Gang Bang may be "edgy" and she may have been "edgy" in the past, but that has nothing to do with whether I like that song compared to any other or how fans and critics feel about the song. I think it is one of the WORST songs she's ever recorded. Other than the bass, there is nothing about it I find listenable.

In a way he insults her by insinuating that she's just rehashing what she's always done with no originality or creative impetus. It's the same old same old, right? So if you liked it when she did it last time, why not now?

AND...if you like one, you like them all. You always have to feel the same about every song. YOU MUST LOVE HER. But you're right, it is stupid. AND pretentious.

The songs he picked out represent the songs/attitudes of a Madonna that fans fell in love with in the first place.

And I'm not sure it's really that flattering that the attitudes of a 25 year-old are just as attractive when they are 53. As I said before, my opinion of Madonna started changing around 1992, so you can explain to Matthew Rettenmund that it is possible not to love all her music and all her songs and to enjoy her earlier period much more than her later period. Because performers and their music evolve. It's not a mysterious concept.

Updated On: 3/28/12 at 09:28 AM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 3:34pm

I appreciate your point Matt--and while I admit I love Gang Bang (just not the name...), I think it's valid. Of course this is all down to personal opinion, but while I don't think the album is even close to brilliant, I don't appreciate being told that the only reason I like the album is I'm clinging to some blind fandom of Madonna (anyone who heard me talk about her in regards to Hard Candy or the lazy Sticky and Sweet tour knows that). By the same token, I don't get the argument that longtime fans who don't like it are clinging to nostalgia and don't understand that she's doing the same thing now.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 4:13pm

Oh, okay, I get it now. My "Goats Head Soup" reference was impossible to figure out because it's such an olden days thing and so far before your time you can't possibly be expected to have the deductive reasoning to figure out the phenomenon I was writing about. Then, to make matters clearer, my discussion of that phenomenon somehow made you feel that I was specifically talking about you and your reaction ("I don't think the album is even close to brilliant") as some sort of example of said phenomenon and you don't appreciate THAT one teeny tiny bit. Like I said, I get it now.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 4:49pm

Reading back it looks like I was refering to you, but I was refering to some of the reviews. Sorry if you took offence. I do find the Goatshead Soup reference a bit silly (particularly as it didn't even come at a late point in their career or didn't follow an album that many fans were disappointed by), but... Anyway, sorry if it did seem to make it personal.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 5:21pm

Well, at least you realize MDNA is at a late point in her career.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 6:02pm

MDNA is expected to sell between 325-350K this week, debuting at #1.

I don't think many people were expecting a debut that high!

http://www.hitsdailydouble.com/news/newsPage.cgi

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 6:10pm

I don't think many people were expecting anything else. Her last four albums debuted at number one.

Updated On: 3/28/12 at 06:10 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 6:20pm

""Those figures are based on one-day sales figures which our crack retail staff arrived at by throwing darts at a board. Take that, Soundscan!"

It doesn't matter how they arrived at those figures, what matters is she gets to brag about it.

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 7:04pm

'I don't think many people were expecting anything else. Her last four albums debuted at number one.'

Good lord he means sales not chart positions, if the prediction is right then that means its very high selling, her last album was around 270k in the first week with a large lead off single

UK sales are more modest putting it at around 37k in 2 days, still going to go to number one. The sales are lower than expected largely due to the fact she has had no big single here at all. It will prob end the week around 70k, bit lower than Hard Candy. The album seems to be selling huge everywhere else

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 7:08pm

Who will she be bragging about it to?

I haven't yet listened to the album, and I'm sure you're all anxiously awaiting my verdict, but in the meantime I just want to go back to Lady Gaga for a moment and something mentioned way earlier in the thread - I don't believe that her championing of LGBTQ causes is just a cynical marketing exercise. Like George Clooney says, the best way to use your celebrity for good is to not spread yourself too thin, and "adopt a cause" to concentrate on...in her case, gay rights. I personally take her at face value.

Carry on.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 7:17pm

You're right, Madonna doesn't actually brag about the sales figures and the high grossing tours. Her surrogates do that to alternately prove her artistry or her relevance. And by surrogates, I mean all of her press releases and the little people, from Liz Rosenberg on down to the apoplectic fans who refuse to face the fact that it isn't 1991 any more. For any of us.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 7:34pm

Although it's hard to compare, especially since album sales used to have more legs, and not such a high percentage of the final number be in week one, but:

Here's how her last several albums did on week 1:
#2 Erotica - 167,000 units (1992)
#3 Bedtime - 145,000 units (1994)
#2 Ray of Light - 371,000 units (199
#1 Music - 420,000 units (2000)
#1 America Life - 241,000 units (2003)
#1 Confessions on a Dance Floor - 350,000 units (2005)
#1 Hard Candy - 280,000 units (200

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 7:35pm

Namo you no longer have points. you are just speaking for the sake of speaking. What are you talking about exactly? So an artist (all major mainstream artists) put out press releases announcing what they have sold. Fans of all the mainstream artists will rejoice if he/she/they do well in the charts. Yet because it's Madonna that's wrong?

Was it wrong that Gaga and her camp told the world how many copies Born This Way sold (yet forgot to put in the press release she sold the alum for 99 cents?).Is it wrong that Lionel Ritchie's camp are basking in how well his new album is doing?

You are just saying the most ridiculous stuff. As for the crack about fans not wanting to admit its 91 anymore, we all know its not, we all know that she does not sell as huge as she once did etc, however it seems it's more people like you who are OBSESSED with the 80s and 90s Madonna and wont shut up about it. Move on, the fans have, we love her old stuff but we also like to look forward and see what she is doing next, some stuff will work, some will not, but at least we ain't living in the past and expecting her to still be the same person, stand for the same things, sell the same amounts etc.

No matter what you say or how many silly statements you come out with, no matter if you hate her music or if you think she is too old to be doing it. The simple fact is she is still doing it, millions are still buying and turning up to her concerts, millions like her new material and enjoy it. It's not having blinkers on, it's not denying that she miss steps some time, and it's not being a fan of the woman because we liked her in the past and WANT to keep liking her. We just happen to like her.

You don't like her, that's fine (though as someone who hates someone so much you were sure quick to listen to her new album), if you want to yell from the top of your voice that you think she is a washed up desperate has been.....great, go for it. However stop trying to speak for the world, like what you think is what the world thinks. Clearly, very clearly it is not. And savage the fans and insult them all you want, but it would seem the most obsessed one here luv is you.

I have never understood why you and Mister Matt etc would spend so much time in a thread about an artist you don't like, i know i would not, i would not even click on it in the first place. You either do it because you want to piss the fans off, or because you are obsessed. If its the latter (which with you Namo i know it is) then she is still just as relevant to you because she is still getting you to talk about her.........A LOT, so for all your screams of she is past it, nobody cares etc, you still can't stop talking about her, and it's that talk that keeps her relevant. As Alanis Morrisette once sang 'Isn't it ironic?'

Updated On: 3/28/12 at 07:35 PM

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:00pm

^ I agree. Why waste so much energy posting about someone you can't stand?

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:20pm

Here's music journalist Stephen Thomas Erlewine's review from allmusic.com I didn';t see it posted here yet. He's a huge Madonna fan, yet almost always has a smart and often critical take on her music that I appreciate with (maybe because I usually agree with it). I think all his Madonna album reviews are linked from there
http://www.allmusic.com/album/mdna-r2406649/review

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:22pm

Good lord he means sales not chart positions

Sorry, since he mentioned chart position, I thought he meant chart position. Either way, given the hype, the Super Bowl performance, and the pre-reviews reviews, I pretty much expected it to be a big seller.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:26pm

Yeah, I definitely meant sales.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:26pm

Eric - I really like you, but I could not get past this part of that review: ...and has seen her '80s persona co-opted and perverted by Lady Gaga...

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/28/12 at 8:26pm

I don't know if I like that wording. But it is pretty significant that this is her first album since Gaga exploded.
Updated On: 3/28/12 at 08:26 PM