Queer Misogyny- Page 10

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:33pm

Save me the pop psychologist routine, Kringas.

You began the thread and you are not proving so hot at addressing real daily issues of mysogynistic gay male behavior. Did you only want a "safe" thread for gale males to chide themselves lightly that oh, there may be a problem and now let's just make a few jokes about it.

I am surprised you even created this thread to think about whether there actually is a problem or not.

Maybe you have UNDERESTIMATED the RESENTMENT gay males create in others when they behave in this way toward or about women. Way underestimated. And for you to try to belittle it or me in the process of a serious discussion tells me it is you who were not ready to face or go into this discussion.

Maybe it is more IMPORTANT than you think for gay males to woo and befriend women if, for nothing else, the politics of their causes.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:35pm

Yeah. I don't see the Corine issue as being misogyny. Her detractors cover a pretty broad demographic.

[katygrace84]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:36pm

A very good friend of mine recently had an experience very similar to what you've been discussing here. She had decided for once to treat herself to a nice meal at a mid-priced tapas place and while she was sitting there all alone she got a little lonely and felt like calling an old friend form back home. A table of gay men she described as being in their mid 40's to early 50's took it upon themselves to laugh and point at her and call her a loser for talking on her phone in a restaraunt. She was incredibly hurt and betrayed by this as she has always considered gay men in general as her friends and allies.
I think our reaction as women has more to do with feeling betrayed by those we always thought of as allies rather than the actions themselves. For example, if a group of straight men had done this to my friend, she probably would not have been nearly as hurt or offended. Right or wrong, we expect more of gay men than we do of straight men. We've been dating the straighties for years- we know what kind of abuse to expect. But in our eyes, gay men are simply better than that.
Part of this also has to do with our feeling of comraderie with gay men. (I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong, it's simply what I observe and tend to feel.) I will admit that I tend to feel more protective of my gay friends (male and female) than I do of my straight friends. Why? Because although I know they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves, I also know that they have a harder battle to fight than my straight friends. Sometimes I feel like women and the gay community are in a joint battle to keep our basic human rights and freedoms safe from the straight white conservative Christian males who seem to dominate our society. Being attacked, then, by a member of one of the groups that is supposed to understand and be sensitive to our struggles is a tough betrayal to take.

[wexy]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:36pm

I'm taking my heterosexuality and I'm goin home.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:39pm

I have frittered away the ENTIRE afternoon on the OT board... Good grief.

And goodbye. For now.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:39pm

Since this isn't a thread specifically about the Corine2 threads, I will point out for the benefit of any open ear that she would begin threads that would be trashed with offensive comments often giving reference to the female atatomy, including what were posed as wouldbe "clever" asides using the word "p*ssy," for example. Offensive and mysogynistic.
Updated On: 5/12/06 at 04:39 PM

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:40pm

Seriously? What offends me most is that you KG (or your friend) and Plume are deciding that enough gay men are misogynists to make this a problem...no...some gay men are a-holes. That is the only thing proved in this thread...and that Plume needs to work on his comebacks when defending a lady on the bus.

[Kringas]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:43pm

You began the thread and you are not proving so hot at addressing real daily issues of mysogynistic gay male behavior.

This could very well be true. I don't claim to have all the answers, though this thread hasn't really done much for helping me get to them.

Did you only want a "safe" thread for gale males to chide themselves lightly that oh, there may be a problem and now let's just make a few jokes about it.

Yes, that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted no intelligent discussion.

I am surprised you even created this thread to think about whether there actually is a problem or not.

You're surprised why, exactly? Because I created this thread? I'm seriously lost on this one. What am I supposed to make of that statement? Please enlighten me.

Maybe you have UNDERESTIMATED the RESENTMENT gay males create in others when they behave in this way toward or about women. Way underestimated. And for you to try to belittle it or me in the process of a serious discussion tells me it is you who were not ready to face or go into this discussion.

Perhaps I have. I've certainly underestimated the resentment gay males create in you.

Maybe it is more IMPORTANT than you think for gay males to woo and befriend women if, for nothing else, the politics of their causes.

I'm still not quite sure why you're laying in so hard to me here. Am I notoriously misogynistic? I'm just not getting you here.

Updated On: 5/12/06 at 04:43 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:44pm

Why is that line from Rocky Horror running through my head?

"I didn't make him for you!"

I bristle at the 'gay men are better and are supposed to be their for us' that some women feel. I suppose it's a compliment, but, really, it just sets us up for failure. We don't exist to validate women's existence. Nor do women exist for us to have the comfort of aping the heterosexual norm.

[wexy]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:44pm

as long as nobody accuses rappers of being misogynists....

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:45pm

I too, am taking my leave of this thread.

You can choose not to hear the obvious if you like, but at least I was brave or foolish enough to give of my time to you to face and discuss the subject here.

[katygrace84]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:45pm

Undi- I know that that is exactly why they chose to belittle her. She and I both agree that talking on your phone while in a restaurant is rude to the others at your table. However, there was no one else at the table. She was alone and lonely. And part of the point of my post was that had a table of straight men done this to her, it would have been hurtful, yes, but not as hurtful as it was coming from a group of gay men.

My point is that I think the most hurtful aspect of this type of misogyny is the betrayal we feel as women to have to face this kind of degredation from men we thought were "on our side."

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:47pm

"Maybe it is more IMPORTANT than you think for gay males to woo and befriend women if, for nothing else, the politics of their causes."

That's it, a "gay agenda" theorist. That explains your reaction on the bus, then, Plume.

[RobbO]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:51pm

i agree.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:52pm

Unidiscovered - That was my first thought, too. I don't think it had to do with the fact that she was a woman or that they wer gay. She was talking on a phone in a restaurant, which is often considered very rude.

"Right or wrong, we expect more of gay men than we do of straight men."

When are double-standards right?

"I will admit that I tend to feel more protective of my gay friends (male and female) than I do of my straight friends. Why? Because although I know they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves, I also know that they have a harder battle to fight than my straight friends. Sometimes I feel like women and the gay community are in a joint battle to keep our basic human rights and freedoms safe from the straight white conservative Christian males who seem to dominate our society."

This is contradictory. Straight women already have more freedom and rights than gay men or gay women. I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think gay men are looking for your pity (or anyone else's, male or female). By expecting more from gay men and treating them differently, you have already discriminated against them. It's like reference to "special rights" or "gay rights" instead of "equal rights". No one wants to hear that sh*t.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:52pm

I think that is the big issue...all gay people are the same. If a gay person slaps you in the face, Katy...do you hate all gay people at that point? I'm sure not.

Some of us are a-holes...but the a ration to non a-holes is the same as straight people.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:54pm

wait, making fun of someone for talking on their cell phone while alone at a restaurant is misogynistic simply because the talker's a woman?

i suppose it would be racist if the person were african american or asian or hispanic.

then also it would probably be homophobic if the person were glbt.

hey this is fun anybody got any other -ics or -ists or -isms that we can apply in this situation?

thank goodness you queens have kg to fight harder for you and expect more of you than from knuckle dragging straight men like me and the awful wexy.

Updated On: 5/12/06 at 04:54 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:55pm

how much do I love papa for the full on use of GLBT.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 4:56pm

I think I love Papa..as long as it isnt in a PalJoey thread.

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:00pm

I avoid those thread like they were made of vagina!


THANK YOU FOLKS, I'M HERE ALL WEEK!

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:01pm

Okay, for that I will respond.

There certainly is a gay political agenda, at least I hope there is one, more likely many agendas. This isn't a communist conspiracy theory nonsense, it's just called political advancement. And so far as I understand the main agenda to be, it is for equal treatment and equal rights in all areas of life and the law, which has not been the case in the past with laws against sodomy and so on.

For all the crap toward me in this thread, you really don't know who I am or what I have done to benefit gay persons when they have faced discriminatory hardships, even suffered physical beatings, do you?

And yet when I see gay males acting in groups with discriminatory and offensive comments and behavior toward women I find offensive the hypocrisy of wanting the freedom from oppression but not minding discriminating and offensive treatment toward women. Why should women care about and politically support people who don't respect them enough to be respectful in their behavior by what they say and do?

If you're going to demand respect it needs to be respect for everyone, just not your own favored group. And that applies to all groups, not just gay males.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:08pm

Plume is a guy?

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:09pm

And one fights disrepsect with disrespect?

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:10pm

you couldn't tell by the plumage? i just cannot let one pass...

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:11pm

no kissmycookie, that's why I was looking for suggestions for a better way