Queer Misogyny- Page 11

[erikaamato]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:12pm

I know someone already mentioned this, but I wanted to second the opinion that I'm so happy Will & Grace came along, so girls who pal around with their gay friends can now be called something nicer than "fag hag." I used to be quite the fag hag of my friend Rusty (who has since passed away)... He loved this term; that's how he'd introduce me to his friends. The first time he said it, though, I was hurt. (I'd never heard the term before, being 21 at the time and new to the West Hollywood scene...) I even asked him, "Wait! Do you think I'm a hag? Am I ugly or something?" He explained that to him, it was a term of endearment, and that all girls who hung out with gay guys were "fag hags." I accepted that, and I even started calling myself a "fag hag," (e.g. "Oh, yeah, I'm a total fag hag!") mainly because I wanted to show I was cool and "in" with the gay culture. But again, I'm very glad there's a nicer word now. =)

[Kringas]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:13pm

For all the crap toward me in this thread, you really don't know who I am or what I have done to benefit gay persons when they have faced discriminatory hardships, even suffered physical beatings, do you?

That's great and good for you, but how would anyone know that unless it was brought up by you? People can only go by what you post (or PM, etc). I have no reason to doubt you, but I'm not sure what exactly this brings to the table. Do I get a pass from you if I start talking about the work I've done for the advancement of feminist and women's issues?

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:15pm

In some ways, it has nothing to do with respect. Frankly...I don't care if you (general 'you', not specific) respect me. In the end, what does that get me?

And I have to just caution that taking the 'Well, if you want my help, show me the respect I deserve' tact may engender a bit of resentment.

What are we, as the gay community, asking for? Just what you (straight community) have. No more, no less. For that I have to go out of my way to show some sort of respect? Or, worse, I have to apologize for the behavior of people I don't know just to make sure someone supports fairness?

It kind of has a 'house n*' vibe to it that puts me off.

[Kringas]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:30pm

If every member of every group had to toe (tow? I never know with this one. I've seen it both ways) the line that has been deemed acceptable, no group would get anywhere.

Do I believe there is queer misogyny? Yes. Would I like to see it disappear? Yes. Will it? Probably not. If it doesn't, does this mean we shouldn't be afforded the rights for which some of us are working? Of course not.

And I don't buy this crap about befriending women (or anyone, for that matter) to advance one's own political agenda. That's not really a way to build a friendship. It's a way to cultivate a working political relationship sure, but that's not the reason I cultivate actual personal relationships with people.

I'm still waiting to hear why nomdeplume was surprised that I started this thread.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:30pm

Do you dislike women, Kringas? Do you refer to their body parts in a negative way and by the use of swears? Do you refer to them as "breeders?"

I have not observed you to "kick in" mysogynistically on the Corine2 threads and I did not presume such things about you.

You have just unwittingly belittled anything I have done on behalf of gay persons, did you mean to belittle and negate that with your comment, to trash it and throw it aside?

And actually, robbiej, women have been more discriminated against than any men in this country. They didn't even get the vote until the 1920's. Couldn't own land, husbands could beat them, take their property. Lennon's song "Woman is the N*gger of the World" was pretty apt.

That's the way politics works in the country. Groups have to coalesce and find common ground to get a majority to change anything politically. Does that engender "resentment?" Funny you think it will if it's a proposition by women. Where does the resentment, then, really lie?

And kringas, if it's surprising you began the thread it's because you've admitted maybe you were looking for a safe little thread, but you obviously picked a volatile topic.

I'm outta here. Can't say it's been a pleasant discussion, but certainly a tough and seldomly addressed one. And discourse, to me, offers one of the only possibliities for advancement of thought, ideas and understanding.
Updated On: 5/12/06 at 05:30 PM

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:32pm

it's toe, kringie-poo. like camel toe.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:33pm

"And yet when I see gay males acting in groups with discriminatory and offensive comments and behavior toward women I find offensive the hypocrisy of wanting the freedom from oppression but not minding discriminating and offensive treatment toward women. Why should women care about and politically support people who don't respect them enough to be respectful in their behavior by what they say and do?"

I find offensive this rather confusing run-on sentence. I am certainly curious to know what sort of discriminating remarks you heard by these gay men. Were they using derogatory language or were they actually women-bashing bigots? There is a huge difference. What offends you more: the fact that they are repulsed by female sexual anatomy or that they talked about it? Or that they used derogatory terms rather than medical terms? Did they say something to the effect that women do not deserve equal rights? You haven't said anything that leads me to believe your statement is justifiable. Are gay men secretly not allowed to use the same language as straight people because they are seeking equal rights? Again, this reeks of double-standards.

[Kringas]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:36pm

Do you dislike women, Kringas?

Nope. Not as a general rule. Sure, there are some I dislike, but I have more women friends than I have men friends. I don't like or dislike people because of their gender, I like or dislike them for who they are (or as in the case on a message board, how I they present themselves).

Do you refer to their body parts in a negative way and by the use of swears?

Nope.

Do you refer to them as "breeders?"

Absolutely not.


You have just unwittingly belittled anything I have done on behalf of gay persons, did you mean to belittle and negate that with your comment, to trash it and throw it aside?

I never meant to belittle anything you did on behalf of gay persons. Indeed, until you mentioned it, I had no idea of what exactly you've done for gay persons.

I did take issue that you chose to direct the word "faggy" as a means of belittling someone you thought was gay. I still stand by my statement that it makes you no better than the man who used the C-word.

And nom, I assume when you say I said I was looking for a safe little thread, you mean this exchange?

Nom: Did you only want a "safe" thread for gale males to chide themselves lightly that oh, there may be a problem and now let's just make a few jokes about it.

Kringas: Yes, that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted no intelligent discussion.

I suppose I should have stressed that "yes" was sarcastic, but I really didn't think anyone (even you) would have believed I was being serious. That, of course, is my folly.

Are you really gone from the this thread now, nom? We've heard that song before.

Updated On: 5/12/06 at 05:36 PM

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:39pm

If someone comes to me and says, 'Give me the respect I believe I'm entitled to or I won't support your rights for full citizenship.' I'd say, 'F*CK you, very much.'

But I'd say it to that person. I would resent the comment made by THAT person. I would not resent the entire demographic to whom that person belongs. That's what I'm not getting here. Does queer misogyny exist? Absolutely. Is it a widespread pandemic? Only speaking from my experience, no. I simply don't see the overwhelming majority of the gay men I deal with (and I have, in my time, dealt with A LOT of them) being particularly misogynistic. Those I have were of a certain generation (older than me). People my age and younger don't seem to have that kind of pervading attitude.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:56pm

"Do you dislike women, Kringas? Do you refer to their body parts in a negative way and by the use of swears? Do you refer to them as 'breeders?'"

Those are three different things. Only the first has to do with misogyny.

The use of female genitalia as a swear word is derogatory, not necessarily misogynistic. Like it or not, the use of those words do not necessarily indicate a "hatred of women". It is how the word is used, just like the use of many non-derogatory words can indicate misogyny. If a gay man calls a woman a c*nt, he is referring to her behavior, because the use of "bitch" and "c*nt" are derogatory slang to indicate the behavior of a female, not demean a person for actually being of the female sex. If he says, "All women are c*nts!", not specifically referring to a person's behavior, then that would indicate misogyny.

And the term "breeders" refers to heterosexuals. That is bigotry, not misogyny. I do not approve of the use of that word, but if you're going to make an argument for misogyny, you should be more accurate.

"You have just unwittingly belittled anything I have done on behalf of gay persons, did you mean to belittle and negate that with your comment, to trash it and throw it aside?"

You should call these "gay persons" on whose behalf you have "done anything" and let them know how easily your actions are negated. I'm sure they'll respect you even more. If they haven't called you a c*nt, that is.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 5:59pm

"I simply don't see the overwhelming majority of the gay men I deal with (and I have, in my time, dealt with A LOT of them)..."

Are you counting the ones you weren't facing at the time?

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 6:02pm

I wasn't even being DIRTY!

Now you made me go all gutter-like!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/12/06 at 6:05pm

Please! I was just lucky I posted first.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 10:11am

Bump

[Calvin]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 10:19am

This was the deer thread of its day.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 10:21am

Whatever happened to nomdeplume?

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 10:29am

No, this thread was kinda like CRASH and the deer thread was more like IT'S A MAD MAD MAD MAD WORLD.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 10:32am

It's under the big W!

Though, in this thread, I suppose it's under the big V.

[tazber]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 11:49am

Question:

does our "old men who look like lesbians" thread qualify as queer
misogyny?

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 11:52am

Actually, I think it's a two-fer of misogyny and homophobia. We are GOOD!

[Wilhelmina]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 11:53am

I was kinda hinting at that to Bettyboy when he was shocked that his lesbian friend was not amused by the thread when Betty sent her a link Taz.

[tazber]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 11:58am

Well I can see how she might have been offended I guess, but still it's all tongue in cheek.
I still laugh at gay stereotype jokes when I know that they're coming from a place of hate. You have to be able to laugh at yourself or life will be very hard to deal with.

Updated On: 11/16/07 at 11:58 AM

[Wilhelmina]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 12:02pm

You are not telling me anything I don't know already. I just thought it was kinda tasteless - and considering all the rainbow flag waving members that were actually posting and abiding with it - I was a bit surprised. But - that's just me. I think the last time I actually looked at that thread someone - jaystarr - posted michael Jackson pics. I wondered what lesbian that young man knows that actually looks like that.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 12:16pm

does our "old men who look like lesbians" thread qualify as queer misogyny?

I kind of wondered that when I saw it, too, but when I bring stuff like that up I get called "Mom" or told I'm oversensitive, so I figured someone else could raise that question.

[tazber]

Posted: 11/16/07 at 12:23pm

Well I posted on that thread and found it amusing so it would be hypocritical of me to say it is.
But I wanted to throw it out there b/c some people apparently did find it in poor taste and it's only right to consider all sides of an issue.