Queer Misogyny- Page 3
Queer Misogyny
#50re: Queer Misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 9:40am
Well, you got that right, for sure.
I keep waiting for a European person to perhaps weigh in on this as far as the word goes, mainly because it IS, to my knowledge, a far more common word there.
Maybe I'm around the wrong gays but I don't hear it that often.
I do hear it used in the context of the "eww, women!" mode of thought that started this thread and in terms of whatever's happening here, is there something I'm missing? I realize that a lot of people feel alienated when the whole "gay pileup" thing starts on a lot of threads or unwelcome or whatever, but, Iflit, is there a large scale inconsiderate attitude towards women here from the gay guys on the board? If there is, I honestly do want to know because I'd like to know if I'm a part of it or if I'm missing it. I won't deny that, because sexism doesn't apply to me, I might be missing it when it's happening here.
iflitifloat
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/10/03
#51re: Queer Misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 9:42am
Addendum to my previous sermonette:
Which is not to say that I believe that everyone who uses the C-word is a misogynist. I would say that the majority *aren't*.
But in the end, it is a charged word that *does* carry misogynistic overtones and is best avoided.
#52re: Queer Misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 9:43amI rarely use the word. Almost never, in fact. But were I standing in front of Ann Coulter -- no promises. It's just one of those occasions where bitch doesn't come anywhere near covering it.
iflitifloat
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/10/03
#53re: Queer Misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 9:45amWell, hell, Calvin, when you put it THAT way, there are always exceptions. Even *I* might be inclined to hurl the C-word in HER direction.
#54re: Queer Misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 9:45am
I know I've been encouraging further discussion about the C word myself, but I'd also like to see if people have anything to add to my thoughts on why so many gay guys (especially younger ones) do have such a sexist attitude towards women. like I said, I personally think it's part of the 180 degree turn so many gay guys feel they must make in order to leave behind the world of heterosexual men and embrace the gay world.
"Look at me! See! I don't like women! Ick! Poo! Gimme my gay card and love me!"
Ann Coulter's very name should be a curse word, Calvin, on a level FAR above any of the previous words we've discussed.
#55re: Queer Misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:07am
okay!
So nom, it's okay for you to call someone a fag but he can't call someone a c-nt?
And the actions of one or several gay guys reflects upon the entire community?
Interesting.
And while I'm not repulsed by vaginas, I certainly have no interest in seeing one. I think women and gay men have an odd relationship: it's very co-dependent. We want them around when we're alone, or need a bar buddy and they treat us in a similar fashion. But we drop each other in a heartbeat when another man is involved. It's an odd form of competition.
I think gay guys are envious of the sexual power women have and women are envious of the respect that gay men have. Yes, society might see us as limp-wristed pansies, but gay men also have a reputation for being smart, hip and authorities on matters aesthetic.
We want the kind of guys women can get and women want the benefit of the doubt that we are accorded.
And sometimes, c-nt is the only word that'll do. Male or female.
#56queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:19amas far as the european thing, having spend a more than healthy amount of time in irish pubs owned, populated by and staffed with 1st generation off the boat paddy whackers (one of my parents names starts with o' so back off) i can attest that i've heard the word used as often as the "f" word (nearly as creatively) in any and all circumstances and by male and female alike. so the irish seem to have less regard for its status as the worst word in the english language. in the cases i've observed (in those corned beef palaces), it is used so often and under so many different circumstances that it seems to have lost any specific meaning beyond being an expletive.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#57queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:36amAs I said in my first post, gay men who act grossed out over women are just insecure with themselves and with their sexuality in just the same way that straight men who gross out over gays are. It's immaturity.
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#58queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:37am
It's interesting, the relationships between gay men and straight women...or, should I say, the relationship most talked about in our society: The Will & Grace Syndrome.
It's been a looooooooooooong time since I've had a Grace. Back in the day when I was terribly insecure about my sexuality, I latched on to a specific type of girl that filled in a void. I was out (how could I not be), but I was very uncomfortable with the sex part of homosex. I pined after straight boys and validated myself through wacky straight girls...who loved having a funny gay clown around. Talk about co-dependent. In some ways, I think that was my worst moment of misogyny.
Since then, I've never been one to either put women on a pedastal or treat them with contempt.
Perhaps it's because we're so reviled in society that we'll look toward the one thing that makes us 'stronger'...the fact that we're men and we 'rule the world'. Perhaps that makes us feel better in some f*cked up kind of way.
#59queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:44amMy Grace was (and is) a lesbian. It always made it rather difficult in bar selection, however.
#60queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:45amPerhaps the C-word, being thrown out in general conversation as a curse word, doesn't have the same strength as when it's directed at a person - and not some celebrity who won't hear you calling her that, but at someone you know - in some form of one-on-one direct communication.
#61queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:47am
Interesting, robbie. I was just talking about my "Graces" last night. This is the first time in my life when I really haven't had a "Grace."
But during the same conversation, the same young gay man I was giving a ride to after practice was telling me how he just can't relate to women, especially lesbians. He said how he had a very hard time relating to them and their 'emotions.' It was truly the first time I've had that conversation with anyone.
Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. - Randy Pausch
kissmycookie
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/21/04
#62queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:47amIs the misogyny just directed towards straight women though? I've witnessed cases where it's directed against straight women and lesbians.
#63queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:48amI didn't get that from this conversation, Cookie. Women are women, no?
#64queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:50am
And you know damn well, Rath, that when I called you that word a year and a half ago, I wasn't referring to anything to do with gender, but the fact that you can be a complete jerk. I was using it in the same way I would have referred to a jerk male. It was only after you spread this PM around BWW that I learned that some women find it offensive.
And, I have a Grace of 10 years and am glad that it didn't begin or ever evolve into the relationship you've described, robbie. But, I have seen those situations. I guess I can see your point there. It's tricky.
#65queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:52am
nah. it lost some of it's strength for me when rachel the smokin' hot irish bartender screamed at me during a game of drunken low in the hole roll your own, "a third 9, ya fookin' c**t ya? you had a third fookin' 9 hidden there?" it was not the first or the last time i heard it used towards a man by a woman in that bar...nor the last time i was the recipient.
i mean in some ways, it's similar to the way ni**er has been reclaimed by african americans and now is used in youth culture by white, black, hispanic, asian, just about everybody. i'm not sure that i agree with the reclamation in either case, but it's happening.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#66queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:52am
Oh...I actually think there is a big distinction between a certain type of gay man's response to straight women and to lesbians.
And I really don't know what that's about. I think there can be a general mistrust between cto* gays and cto lesbians (*cty stands for 'certain types of'...just to keep me from generalizing). And all those sexual stereotypes are what are in play. It kills me. The whole 'I'm a man...hear me roar"/"You're a man...therefore you beat and oppress me" thing is so bizarre. Ya know...we're ALL f*cked seven ways to Sunday. We'll all be on the same train cars going East if certain people had anything to say about it. Why the fuss?
iflitifloat
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/10/03
#67queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:52am
Well, Robbie. I know yousee people as people and I've never known you to be either contemptous or overly reverent toward someone based on gender ...and that's probably why it has never bothered me much when *you* toss the c-word around. Which you have been known to do rather liberally. 
Odd how there is always an exception to any rule, isn't it...
Oh, and Robbie....will we be hearing any of the C-word at your show? Which has been mentioned and recommended in numerous publications, I might add. (Yes, a BLATANT threadjack... what can I tell you, there's always an exception....)
#68queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:53am
I'm late to this discussion, but I'd like to mention what happened to me.
I remember this as though it happened yesterday, although it was around 20 years ago. I was watching a film on tv with a large group of my gay male friends. These weren't acquaintances but men with whom I hung out daily and spent summers on FI with, living in the same house. Really close friends. Anyway, on the screen appeared a straight love scene, and some views of female genitalia. A handful of these guys stood up, started screaming yech! and ran out of the room, laughing.
OK, I know their behavior was extremely juvenile, but it affected me to this day. I immediately felt sad and betrayed in some way. I wondered why they were so repulsed by something I as a woman had. I mean, I wasn't asking them to have sex with a woman, why were they so repulsed? I know I would never show any disrespect in any way towards any of them, why were they making fun of me? (that's how I took it, making fun and being repulsed by me). I started questioning whether or not they were really my friends. I can't tell you how depressed I was at that very moment.
iflitifloat
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/10/03
#69queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 11:54am
"Perhaps the C-word, being thrown out in general conversation as a curse word, doesn't have the same strength as when it's directed at a person - and not some celebrity who won't hear you calling her that, but at someone you know - in some form of one-on-one direct communication."
I think that is an excellent and valid point.
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#70queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 12:02pm
Oh God...Did I actually use the C-word in last year's show???? I couldn't have...my mother would have beaten me with a rolling pin!
No C-word in this show!
And yes...I love the C-word. Actually, I love all curse words. Some times I think I'm the father from A CHRISTMAS STORY...I work in profanity the way other artists work in oil or clay.
#71queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 12:05pm
I was sitting right next to your mother ... she hit me twice!
#72queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 12:06pmthat had nothing to do with the c-word, somms.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
nomdeplume
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/20/05
#73queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 12:18pm
"OK, I know their behavior was extremely juvenile, but it affected me to this day. I immediately felt sad and betrayed in some way. I wondered why they were so repulsed by something I as a woman had. I mean, I wasn't asking them to have sex with a woman, why were they so repulsed? I know I would never show any disrespect in any way towards any of them, why were they making fun of me? (that's how I took it, making fun and being repulsed by me). I started questioning whether or not they were really my friends. I can't tell you how depressed I was at that very moment."
Jane2 just made a serious indictment of gay male mysogynistic behavior. What males or gay men from this board are going to take her comment seriously and address it instead of changing the subject or making a joke which negate not only her comment, but her very person in a misogynistic way by ignoring her.
Updated On: 5/12/06 at 12:18 PM
#74queer misogyny
Posted: 5/12/06 at 12:25pm
ok, not responding to her comment, simply because she's a woman, is now misogynist? Dear god, I'm going to call everyone a gay-basher if they ever ignore me again!
Now, I didn't ignore her, but I was also trying to think of a response. Again, though, no one seems to be answering me when I bring it up.
I think a lot of the misogyny in gay culture comes, not from intentional hate of women, but from a need to identify as NOT STRAIGHT AND THEREFORE NOT INTERESTED IN THOSE STRAIGHT-IDENTIFYING TRAITS AND INTERESTS (read: women's parts).
For the record, I am not, nor am I ever, grossed out by the presentation of nudity (heck, I admit to owning some straight porn) but I'm not turned on by a nude female either. I think that's what these guys were acting out on, their need to confirm their gayness.
Jane, I'm sorry it made you feel that way, though. Did you ever talk to them about it?
Videos