Sean Hayes betrays gays AGAIN- Page 4

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 11:50am

Can we please not use the term Christian when talking about the crazy-fundamentalist-right-wing wackos. I am Christian and I take my faith VERY seriously, but I do not believe God hates gay people, rather that God made gays just like he made straights.

The good majority of us are not against you (just the ones in the public eye).

Also- I know MANY gays who are Christians. Are they betraying their 'gayness' by being a Christian?


EDIT- Orangeskittles beat me to it.

Updated On: 2/1/06 at 11:50 AM

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:00pm

skittles and Jacob, perhaps you need to RE-READ my post, (or perhaps REALLY read it). Nothing I wrote was negative, just telling it as it is.
THEY are still christians Jacob, no matter how you'd like to disassociate yourself from them...are they wacko? Sure, are you? No......but they are STILL christians.
The VAST majority of christians in America are extremely anti-gay, especially in middle America. That's just the way it is.
And deluding yourself by thinking otherwise, only fools yourself........

Updated On: 2/1/06 at 12:00 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:08pm

Not to pick on orange (you know I love ya) or jacob, because I know that there are Christians that embarrass you as much as some 'mos do to me. (That's fraught with meaning, huh?) Sux, huh?

It reminds me of Homer Simpson in the "Three Gays of the Condo" episode: (In re his love for Marge) "It's the same feeling you guys get when you look at Rip Taylor."

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:10pm

oh I love that lil....'mos

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:12pm

Elphaba- I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've ever disagreed with you. Once again I stand by my statement that the majority of Christians are not gay-haters. That is not the teaching of Jesus, Jesus taught to love.

Now, some Christians do not believe that God made gays gay (like I do) but they respect the person's decision saying that it is God's place to judge.

You said "The VAST majority of christians in America are extremely anti-gay, especially in middle America." I believe it should read "The VAST majority of christians IN THE PUBLIC EYE in America are extremely anti-gay." Most Christians who are pro-gay are perfectly happy being pro-gay and they don't go on CNN MSNBC etc saying they are because there is no need to, BECAUSE their religion tells them to love all, and by flaunting themselves they are flaunting their religion (something EVERYONE always seems to get upset about). These same Christians vote pro-gay have gay friends, attend commitment cerrimonies (some pastors I know even perform them knowing full well that the leaders of the church could fire them for doing so), attend pro-gay rallies etc.

I'm sorry for the rambling, but this is a topic I am VERY vocal about.

Updated On: 2/1/06 at 12:12 PM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:26pm

Elphaba (same with jacobsf, I rarely disagree with you) I read your post. You refer to Christians as a "they," thereby lumping them all together in one category. That's no better than Pat Robertson talking about "those homosexuals" and making blanket statements about your lives.

Christianity means that you believe Jesus is the son of God. That's it. It has nothing to do with politics, but unfortunately, many people have devolved its meaning into being all about politics. Like lildogs said, yes, there are some loudmouth fundamentalists that think they speak for the rest of us, but I just think sticking groups of people into an "us vs. them" situation doesn't help anyone.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:27pm

Jacob, and it's ok if we disagree. That's what (still) makes Americca wonderful. no matter how much Adolf Bush is trying to destroy that.

Updated On: 2/1/06 at 12:27 PM

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:27pm

I wanted to add one more thing:

Back in the early 1800's in the south Slaveowners would donate large amounts of money to the church. IN EXCHANGE the preacher would put comments into his sermon making it seem like slavery was, itself, a divine-Godly action.

I believe that the same thing is happening today (on a much more 'hush-hush' scale). Religion has turned into a business. Those with the big money are usually white men, and they are usually bigots. They donate large amounts of money to the church, and the preachers tell them what they want to hear.

I grew up in a very conservative area, and yet, my church (and all those around it) NEVER gave an anti-gay remark. In fact, over the past few years my pastor (a pretty conservative Republican) has been preaching that we need love for all.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:28pm

Ironically, I was discussing this issue just last night with an actor friend of mine who's gay and out to his family and friends, but contemplating how out to be in his career which is starting to really take off. He's been cast in the leading role in what looks like something that's going to be very high profile nationally later this year. He's going have to do a lot of major press when it's released, so he's trying to figure out how to handle the inevitable questions about his personal life. He's not going to lie or pretend to be straight or manufacture some girlfriend or something, but at the same time he doesn't want being gay to define him or his career.

He has no interest in being one of those "professionally gay" celebrities who's sexuality is the single most identifiable aspect to them -- not their work or their talent. He doesn't want to be a spokesman for any community -- he just wants to act. For him it's 100% about the work, not about fame or money which is why he's repeatedly turned down more lucrative Hollywood projects over the years to do quality theatre that he believes in (he took this high profile project mainly because the writing was absolutely phenomenal -- as good as many of the plays he's done).

He's also from the school of thinking (shared by many press shy actors from DeNiro to Daniel Day Lewis) that the more you know about an actor's private life, the less effective he can sometimes be in his work -- and that's not just a gay thing, that's also about over publicized actors like Affleck, Cruise, Pitt, Aniston, Jolie etc...... who's every move and insipid statement is dutifully recorded by the tabloids. All of that exposure makes it difficult to watch them on the screen and fully accept them as the characters they play.

I think he's going to try to go the Jodie Foster route and not lie, but simply refuse to discuss any aspect of his personal life. Foster has somehow managed to do Hollywood entirely on her own terms. She refuses to discuss her sexuality, her partner, her kids (and who's the father of her kids), yet she's still one of the highest paid and most respected actresses in Hollywood, still a popular box office draw to middle America (the success of the mediocre Flightplan proved that), and seems to be accepted and respected by the gay community, whom she's never embraced. She's never once lied about anything or pretended to be straight and everyone seems to respect that (though everyone -- including, I think, middle America -- knows the deal) and are willing to give her space and respect her privacy.

It's unfortunate that he or any other actor feels the need to have to come up with a strategy of handling these issues with the press, but the reality is that coming out can still very much hurt an actor's career -- especially a young male actor's career. While I like and respect Rupert Everett and Chad Allen for coming out, when's the last time either of them was cast in a leading role in a high profile film or tv show? Allen seems to be doing Lifetime movies (and that gay detective thing that I read about but I could never find whatever obscure channel it was airing on) and Everett is doing voiceover work for the Shrek series and small roles in art house films. These are handsome, talented actors who haven't seemed to work much since coming out (or being outed in Allen's case).

Nathan Lane, Chris Sieber and the many other out gay stage actors are doing great -- on Broadway, that is, where nobody cares about gay actors playing straight characters. When's the last time Lane headlined a successful movie? Every non-animated film he's starred in since the Birdcage ten years ago -- when he was still in the closet -- has flopped (Mousehunt, Isn't She Great, The Producers). His tv shows all flopped too.

And yes, Ian McKellan's career has certainly taken off since he came out, but, c'mon, he's an elderly knighted British actor who does mainly character roles. Almost none of the characters he plays are sexual beings or have romantic entanglements. How many of those kids in the cineplexes out there really give a second thought to whom the actor playing Gandalf or Magneto is sleeping with in real life? Do the tabloids even bother to follow him around to catch him with his boyfriends? Do many mainstream filmgoers care a hoot about him beyond his performances on screen?

I could give other examples, but I can't think of any American male actor under the age of 50 who's mainstream (ie -- non-stage) career has benefited and been improved by coming out -- and in fact, since they announced it, some remain perennially in small roles on the fringes of tv and indy film (Wilson Cruz, David Drake, Dan Butler, Craig Chester) and several seem to have disappeared altogether (whatever happened to Danny Pintauro?). And when they do work, they're often typecast.

I'm sorry, but while I do find it unfortunate and a bit insulting when people lie and invent girlfriends etc.. , I just can't blame a young actor for being wary of being identified as a "gay actor" in Hollywood. While it might make you personally happier and a hero to some, it's most likely not going to help and in fact may really hurt your career.

Updated On: 2/2/06 at 12:28 PM

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:29pm

I don't know about the majority, jacob. I think you might be thinking wishfully. Having been raised in red states as a Christian, I was put through alot of crap from the other kids in church, at bible school, after school, you name it. I never understood why people would act that way in a Christian setting, but they did. The times, they haven't a-changed that much.

[Jilani]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:29pm

jacobtsf, I only wish this silent, pro-gay Christian majority you refer to would be more active at the polls. So far, 18 states have passed so-called "marriage protection" amendments to their constitutions, and in most of those states, they were approved by 70% or more of the people voting. I'd say that's a pretty vast majority of voters, and in all likelihood, the majority of those voters are Christians.

But perhaps a better term for those who want to politicize intolerance in the name of Christianity is "Christianist," a term I learned from Andrew Sullivan's blog:

http://blogs.csmonitor.com/verbal_energy/2005/05/index.html#a0004654350

[DG]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:32pm

Thank you, Margo.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 12:34pm

Jacob, you wrote "Now, some Christians do not believe that God made gays gay (like I do) but they respect the person's decision saying that it is God's place to judge."

Basically you are saying you respect the decision, but God will judge, hence hellfire, etc. That in your mind lets you off the hook......but it still states that we are wrong, and we will get what's coming to us......I find that very unrespectful, and negates the respect you say is given.....

again, both skittles and jacob, I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs, you certainly have a right to them. I am trying to perhaps have you understand how these comments can be perceived.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 1:36pm

Sean Hayes, the actor, has betrayed no one. Even without the plot description, he is performing, not writing, directing or producing the episode. Sometimes actors play bad people and sometimes they play good people. Gay or straight. Fundamental info.

Coming out is a personal choice, not a requirement. BUT, by not coming out, you are decreasing the visibility of the GLBT population, therefore inhibiting the progression of equal rights and acceptance. So, if that is your choice, it is yours to make.

Being a celebrity does not give anyone the "right" to access your private life. Fans and press often mistake the "right" with the "desire" for personal information. The bottom line is, why do they care?

[Elphaba]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 1:51pm

Matt, I do truly believe that you are only fooling yourself by not coming out, and you are denying a large part of who you are, which I find very sad.
But I do agree with you that coming out is a choice, not a requirement...and I really am against "outing."

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 1:54pm

Good points, Margo, though I think Chad Allen's career direction is more the result of his abilities than his life. Nathan didn't come out until the Matthew Shepard murder and his biggest stage successes followed that, so that's my reasoning there--same with Ellen. Of course, Nathan probably wouldn't be working MUCH more if he were straight, his type just isn't in demand as much as a Jake or a Heath.

I doubt very seriously that people realize Jodie's gay. I think they put her into a different category of actress, rather than movie star. Nobody's interested anyway, just like if Meryl or Joan or Frances was gay. They're not "those kind" of actors.

And I can tell you what happened to Danny P, as if you didn't know.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 2:56pm

"Matt, I do truly believe that you are only fooling yourself by not coming out, and you are denying a large part of who you are, which I find very sad."

As do I, but I also support their right to come out when they choose. Coming out was a relatively easy process for me, especially considering I was a teenager in high school in Texas in the 80s at the time. And knowing how lucky I was, I never take for granted what a risky and sometmes dangerous process it can be for others.

[jacobtsf]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 3:12pm

Elphaba- I wasn't trying to bring up images of hellfire, and that is not what is in the minds of these Christians, forgiveness is. I realize that you've been hurt by some Christians, but so have I (I'm not exactly the most masculine guy). You do have to believe that at the heart of TRUE chirstians (not just using the religion to get ahead in te world) there is love.

Once again, I am not trying to force my opinion on you (that is the last thing on my mind), I just want you to know that saying "Christians are bigots" is a blanket statement that is VERY false.

Posted: 2/1/06 at 4:29pm

Maybe this is a heterosexual viewpoint - but I don't go around "flaunting" I'm straight. Why should someone who's gay be any different - or "have" to be different.
--------------------------------------------------------

Yes. It is a heterosexual point of view.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 4:32pm

Yeah, but chita, you've never been made to feel/were told/read/saw/heard that you were evil, or wrong or bad about being straight.

And there's lots of guys in NYC who flaunt their hetero-ness--just think of all the guys who yell things at women, act a fool in the club, or the girls who dress like whores and make out with their men in movies, restaurants, lobbies...

You might not flaunt, chita, but plenty of people are picking up your slack.

[robbiej]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 4:45pm

Oh...Chita flaunts...she was quoting Craig.

As for the 'God judges' and 'forgiveness' comments...what's to forgive? What's to judge? Look to those words and what you (or others) really think.

As an actor in the biz and someone who's REALLY gay (but can play straight on stage...stop laughing bitches), I'd have no problem being an out gay actor, for the sheer fact that I wouldn't mind going from small gay role to small gay role on tv or film and then getting to do some really great stuff on stage. In fact, that would be an ideal life for me. That or hosting my own show on HGTV.

[lildogs]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 4:53pm

That's exactly the way I feel--I'd rather be out, catting around NYC with my little sitcom job playing the wacky sidekick and then using that door to get great stage work. But that's just me--I'd rather be a happy has-been than a miserable superstar.

Posted: 2/1/06 at 5:00pm

I just wanted to say that I am a Christian who is all for people being gay, being straight, being bi. As far as I'm concerned none of the preceeding things that I mentioned are a choice, it's something you are born with. I'm not sure how to say it so that I don't offend anyone though. I guess my main point is that you are who you are and it isn't a choice, it's who you are and you should embrace it. I know a lot of people that don't agree with me, especially here in my bible belt home in texas but I stick to my beliefs. I know there are some really judgemental christians out there but I want to make it clear that I'm not one of those (and yes, we do exist) As for the "burning in hell" thing...I've thought about this before and I've always come to the same conclusion: why would a God that we are taught is so loving, condem people to hell over something that we don't really have control over? It's my belief that people that are gay don't go to hell because they are gay just like people who are straight don't go to hell simply because they are straight. I'm going to step down off of my soap box now, I just really wanted to put my 5 cents in.

Posted: 2/1/06 at 6:06pm

Also, what about the fact that some people are so priviliged that coming out for them is actually a no-brainer. Does anyone believe that Sean Hayes is going to have a hard time finding a job if he comes out? He will continue to work until he decides not to.

It's a lot different if you live in a small town in a state like Texas. Those places can be very scary and some of those fundamentalist can be downright evil.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/1/06 at 6:13pm

lildogs is right - many many many many straight guys flaunt their "straightness", though they would never call it "flaunting". But it is performed in verbally and physical in posturing, phrasing and physicality. Most often it is displayed during times of aggression or excitement. Think of guys hooting in a straight bar and guys hooting in a gay bar. Same thing, but completely different mannerisms. Unless you get into the "straight-acting" wannabes, which is another world altogether. I think they do more damage than the gays still in the closet. Oftentimes they ridicule or downright shun other gays for being "too gay" and try to appear as "heterosexual" as possible to seem more attractive.