Shame on Kristin Chenoweth- Page 9

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:29pm

Reading and understanding are two very different things.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:30pm

I'm giggling because I have called DGrant and Auggie and others the same thing. But, you see, you clearly do not have the same advantage point that I do regarding papa. And, quite frankly, you have completely missed the points I made in my "long posts". I could care less.

And DARLING I know ALL ABOUT the internalized homophobia and racism etc that goes on in all of its lovely forms. I just pointed out that papa knows a THING OR TWO about dealing with racism.

And, if I am ignorant in your eyes. Oh well. I'm not gonna go cry now if that's what you were hoping.

Papa, can we agree that there is someone just a titch "worse than me"?

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:30pm

"Reading and understanding are two very different things."

... of which I'm well aware since I excel at both. :)

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:33pm

and love is a many splendored thing.

you two really ought to listen, you know. i mean without people like evelyn to explain what's really going on to you, you might have befriended a straight white man, and a republican to boot! jrb, they'd wipe your walls clean of those pretty patterns for that, and that was one of mrs. mambo's favorite parts of your place.

just a titch worse?

Updated On: 1/15/05 at 03:33 PM

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:33pm

Grand statements are a wonderful thing to see, but their meaning would be better conveyed through an example put into practice.

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:35pm

"i mean without people like evelyn to explain what's really going on to you, you might have befriended a straight white man, and a republican to boot!"

*sigh* If only I'd arrived sooner.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:37pm

straight??

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:38pm

oh no! Now Evelyn will know that I've had you and Mrs. Mambo over for fun and games!! I'm truly startling ignorant NOW!

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:41pm

shh, you can say you tried to poison us, but we were avoiding chocolate, so the little ghosts were all for naught. had you had your wits about you you would have put something in the good stuff.

[EvelynNesbit1906]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:42pm

"oh no! Now Evelyn will know that I've had you and Mrs. Mambo over for fun and games!! I'm truly startling ignorant NOW!"

And due for some tremendous internal conflict over the next few years, too. :) You can't play in both camps for long, JRB. Pro-gay rhetoric and schmoozing with a troll who cruises forums for liberals to [unsuccessfully] chew apart? Sorry, you just can't have it both ways, darling.

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:53pm

Keep digging, Evelyn - it's fascinating to watch.

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:54pm

troll cruising forums?

wow, you're just full of wit today ain't ya, boy?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 3:55pm

narrow minded much?

Papa doesn't stand for the things I hate, sweetcheeks. You can criticize all you please when you know so very little about me and about papa.

Think what you will if it delights you. Hey--to each his own.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 4:05pm

and, I'd like to add that being friends with someone you argue with politically makes for really awesome sex!!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 4:08pm

I absolutely agree that liberation movements happen on multiple levels. I know from experience that without the agitating in the streets, the "vaguely threatening," the people "shoving the issues down the throats and screaming," all the HRC-styled shucking and jiving accomplishes nothing.

And Papa, surely the change of heart that Malcolm has by the end of The Autobiography of Malcolm X has to count for something with you. I thought Catholics totally DUG redemption narratives!

I think Kristin needs both, fans who just think that every perfumed Xian cloud of gas that eeks out of her teeny tiny pooter is "amazing" and those who say, "hey, theater chick, a whole bunch of people who put you where you are today -- even if indirectly by going to see piece of crap shows you are in IN SPITE of your presence in them -- are unhappy with your support of those who work against them."

There would be almost no, and I mean ALMOST ZERO BESIDES AZT, HIV treatments if it weren't for the very screaming and yelling and Wall Street-interrupting activists of ACT UP who were roundly criticized by the "you catch more flies with honey" crowd back in the day.

[Iris Chacon]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 4:32pm

Namo;
What happened to the " I am dead to Coreen" thread? It was getting fun late last night.

[Plum]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 4:33pm

...

Everyone has their own idea of fun, I guess.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 4:33pm

It was still there when I went to bed. So I must have missed a lot. I woke up this morning, the thread was gone, and I was resurrected.

[bta212]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 5:28pm

Wow--I take a few hours to go to cruise the hardware department at Costco (bored suburban husbands) and Stonewall II breaks out on the boards--very exciting.

There absolutely is a place in any liberation struggle for both those who work within the system and those who fight in the streets. I believe that any conflict requires both. When I lived in DC my partner worked for the Campaign Fund, and there has was a tremendous amount of good work done by those folks--hours of education of staffers and members on our issues, and hard-won concessions and compromises on countless pieces of legislation. The legislative process is about compromise, and the fog of rhetoric can obscure the fact that real progress is made. Are the fund-raising dinners self-congratulatory and wasteful? Sure, but it's all part of a process that really can't be short-circuited, and real progress is made.

Can you love your oppressor? Can you have friends who don't support your political agenda? What if your "agenda" is nothing less than demanding your own civil rights? Well, there is idealism and there is reality, and each person draws the line somewhere. I live a profoundly out-loud-and-proud life, yet there are people in my life who are too important to me to cut loose, but who do not "believe" in gay marriage. Sorry--my life is too short to make every single decision in the crucible of one issue. Hypocrite? O.K., if you say so--but I'm comfortable that I fight the good fight every day. I have the luxury of wealth, geography, timing and family love to be unapologetic, unashamed and un-compromising, yet I still compromise sometimes. Setting an example as a principled gay person of dignity for people who still have a lot to learn is valuable. We all debated constructive engagement over apartheid, and we can debate it in gay/lesbian rights as well. I think gay Republicans are insane, but some of them sincerely think they are making a difference. Maybe they are.

I think you need a tremendous amount of insight into a person's heart to label them "racist" and "homophobic". Whose tapestry truly pure of any negative threads? And "ignorant"--I've only been on the boards for a while, but Papa, Namo and JRB ain't ignorant. Occasionally mis-guided, sure, but again--who isn't?

O.K. Group hug everybody----

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 5:42pm

I think HRC was and is unforgiveably conservative and has demonstrated again and again not only their willingness, but their desire and ability to disenfranchise any group of people or idea that they think will inhibit their ability to get crumbs from the table of the powers that be. Hell, if friggin Cheryl Jaques was too radical for them, that HAS to tell you something. As Kate Clinton put it, "Hmmmm. An entire movement reduced to an equal sign."

Updated On: 1/15/05 at 05:42 PM

[bta212]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 7:19pm

Namo--

"Conservative"--Yes, the Campaign Fund is conservative; I suspect that is an inherent characteristic for an organization designed to lobby on the Hill year in/year out, Democrat or Republican. I just don't see it as a perjorative label for a lobbying group and I certainly don't see it as "unforgivable".

"...demonstrated again and again not only their willingness, but their desire and ability to disenfranchise any group of people or idea that they think will inhibit their ability to get crumbs from the table of the powers that be..."

Well, it's nicely worded, but I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm interested to know of specific examples of their "disenfranchisement" of someone. When I was in DC, the whole NAMBLA thing was on the boil, and the Campaign Fund stood behind them on principle. Still--it's certainly possible you know of situations where difficult groups or ideas were cut loose; again, strategic decisions are made as part of the political process. When you are one of the ones cut loose, it's easy to cry foul, but it's the job of a lobbying organization to set a goal and keep their eye on the big picture.

Cheryl Jaques????? She wasn't too radical--she was incompetent. I have never read or heard a word to indicate that the board or staff felt she was radical. Do you know something I should know?

An equal sign? I think that says it. And it's the perfect symbol for the HRC--you can live in Old Town Alexandria and work at the D.O.D. and put it on the bumper and not feel to "radical".

Bottom line--I think the Campaign Fund performs a necessary function, and I think their caution, their compromises and their appeasements suit their mission. They are one voice, one strategy among many in a far-flung campaign. If their style doesn't suit you, join the Guerilla Girls, but let's not cannibalise our own movement. (Which doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize. I should say that I thought the campaign fund really f**ked up the '04 election.)

[Justice]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 10:10pm

Let's not forget Bette Midler, who performed at Bush's first inaugeration.

Updated On: 1/16/05 at 10:10 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 10:31pm

What's your definition of Christian? It's kind of insulting to categorize an entire faith by its nutjobs. Right, everyone who encourages tolerance of Muslims?

[bta212]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 10:37pm

Uh...Plum...I'm pretty sure "nut jobs" is two words...

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/15/05 at 10:44pm

man it's like the 60's that i never go to take part in...

one, two, three, four
we don't want your holy war
five, six, seven, eight
we'll show ya where to shove that hate

*sniff*

it's just so damn special