Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?- Page 2
Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
#25Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 9:54amtyping your screen name into google and pressing enter is hardly "stalking". You should learn the definition of the word (like you should learn a lot of things) before throwing it out there, dipshlt.
#26Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 10:04am
The whole religious victimization argument gives me a headache. No one is attacking or objecting to your beliefs. We are, however, attacking conduct that attempts to impose your beliefs on others.
When a person's religious beliefs restricts my ability to receive objective scientific information, birth control, exercise my own personal health care decisions, or have equal footing on the job front, then we are no longer talking about beliefs, but conduct.
Believe what you want - just do not try and force the government/schools or your neighbors to validate/follow your religious beliefs.
Freedom of religions includes Freedom from religion.
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#27Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 10:37amYWIW, so what is your opinion on this current issue of the government and the Catholic Church? Should the Catholic Church be forced into providing services which they morally disagree with?
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#28Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 10:48am
If the Catholic Church wants to offer health insurance they should have to follow the same rules everyone else does who offers health insurance. Remember Goth...this only applies to people the church hires...it's not like this forces nuns to go on the pill.
You don't have to be Catholic to work for Catholic Charities. The Catholic church shouldn't be able to limit health care options of it's employees who don't share the same beliefs as the church.
If you don't agree with birth control...don't get it. You make it sound like this bill forces everyone to use birth control.
#29Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 10:48amIt's not the church that's providing the services.
....but the world goes 'round
#30Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 10:53am
Though the question wasn't directed to me, I'll chime in anyway. To clarify, there is an exception for organizations whose primary function is religion, so the Catholic Church is not being forced to provide coverage for contraception. However, entities which are affiliated with religious organizations, such as many hospitals, universities, etc are subject to that provision of the healthcare act.
That said, I think the Obama administration is making the correct decision, but they've handled it clumsily. I don't see why a chain of hospitals that may employ thousands of workers and whose primary purpose is not religion should be exempt. I see nothing that conflicts with freedom of religion. Not that it matters, but I'd think most Catholics would be in favor of getting coverage for their birth control.
"It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
-- Thomas Jefferson
#31Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 11:44am
To echo what MB says (which seems like a common practice for me these days)...
If any religious organization decides to become a service provider, those services/conduct should be subject to the same rules and regulations as other service providers. You should not be able to bootstrap a religious exemption because the religious organization chose to enter a specific service.
If the government said that each individual participant/employee HAD to procure and use birth control despite individual religious objections, that would be unconstitutional and I would be opposed to it. No one is taking away anyone's individual religious choice.
eponine88
Broadway Star Joined: 12/8/03
#32Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 11:55am
As for me, I am deeply saddened by how many members of *both* sides treat the other. I am a practicing Catholic, and I consider myself to be fairly devout on a spiritual level, but there are still a number of things I will never be able to bring myself to agree with the Catholic Church about. I cringe when I read many of the articles quoting Christian/Catholic bigots who espouse their opinions without actually understanding the history, tradition, and theology upon which our faiths are built. While I can often understand the seed at the heart of their argument, they take it to a level that reveals their ignorance and make the rest of us look like monsters.
I have close friends from many belief (and non-belief) systems, and I do not think any of them are "better" people based solely on their beliefs. I admit that I do think some of them are probably better people in general lol- there are some people whose kindness and compassion simply shine out while some of my friends can actually be quite cruel, but that judgment has nothing to do with faith. I have had many a respectful intellectual discussion with my agnostic and atheist friends to better understand our respective beliefs, and I've always found it very informative and stimulating.
My heart breaks when I see people who have been so badly burned by religion that they lose sight of the fact that there are individuals within any belief system who are good and those who are bad. I remember that when my ex and I started dating he didn't realize I was Catholic until a few weeks later when I mentioned that I couldn't meet for something because I had to go to Mass. He was completely horrified and immediately asked if I thought he was going to hell because he was agnostic. My response, of course, of course not- why would I possibly be dating someone I believed was a bad person?
I think a lot of people I know tend to forget that I'm a practicing Catholic because I don't go around parading it or shoving it down people's throats. I have no problem with people knowing that I'm Catholic, but I personally feel that I can represent my faith better by simply living in a manner that is consistent with my beliefs rather than making a big show of it. I'm sometimes afraid that by doing so, I contribute to the negative image that believers get. Though I know there are many like me, I think people probably don't tend to associate us with the religions we belong to as we aren't as vocal about our membership. People tend more to notice the loud, obnoxious, attention-grabbers- who are often very poor examples of what our religions are meant to espouse.
Yet just as there are individuals on my own side with whom I am disgusted, I have met just as many atheists who are judgmental towards those who do affiliate with a religious tradition. Speaking solely from personal experience, I know I encountered a lot of anti-Catholic/Christian sentiment when I was in college. Although I attended a Catholic school, we were constantly encouraged to logically evaluate our faith (for anyone who is familiar with more of the nuances of the different Catholic groups, this was clearly a Jesuit school...lol). As a scientist, I loved this critical approach, and personally developed a more informed spirituality as a result. However, it also led to a few unfortunate incidents. One professor made all practicing Catholics in the room stand up while she shot a Nerf gun at us for being representatives of all that is wrong with the world. On one Ash Wednesday I was sitting in the cafeteria with one of my closest friends (who is openly gay) when a group of students came over, pulled my friend away from the table and told me that I had no right to sit with him since "I was the one who was damned, not him". I know that getting ashes is one of the more visible signs of my Catholicism, but I don't try to draw additional attention to it- it is just something that I do for myself. If it wasn't bothering my friend I don't see why strangers would feel the need to get involved.
Overall, most of the academic circles I run in tend to lean much more in the agnostic/atheist direction. While I generally have no problem with that, there are those who like to mock me as a less intelligent member of the group for not having given up religion yet. They assume that because I am Catholic, I can't be a scientist. This is far from true. I am not the type to take the Bible literally, and I see no reason why scientific discovery should be considered in opposition with my faith. It frustrates me that my friends can post anything related to their atheism on social networking sites- be it an article about Carl Sagan or an inflammatory cartoon mocking Catholics/Christians and it is fine, while if I post a lyric from a Christian rock song of have a reference to a feast day I am attacked within seconds for shoving my religion down their throats. In academic circles at least, I feel that anti-religious sentiment is an acceptable prejudice, though my experience may certainly be biased. And I know that the opposite is true in many more blue-collar environments. I think ultimately the challenge for all of us is to simply live our lives the way we believe is right while remembering that the most vocal individuals do not necessarily represent the majority of their group.
Just my 2 cents :)
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#33Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 12:08pmYWIW, you're setting up a hypocrisy. Liberals love to scream separation of church and state. Well this is where that falls. If there is truly separation of church and state, then the government shouldn't be meddling in church affairs.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#34Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 12:12pm
It's a good point eponine. Many atheists I know are very haughty and condescending to anyone with a belief in god.
Just like people who have faith in a god feel that those of us who don't are somehow lacking a sense of morality.
The door swings both ways, but because there are fewer atheists I guess we get the brunt of it.
....but the world goes 'round
#35Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 12:23pm
"If there is truly separation of church and state, then the government shouldn't be meddling in church affairs."
Yeah and vice/versa, Asshole.
#36Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 12:28pm
Goth, no one is forcing anyone to do anything contrary to their religious beliefs. The choice is still with the individual. If a practicing Catholic does not want birth control, she will not ask for the benefit.
Call me when the state forces women to take contraception against their religious beliefs. At that point, I would stand up and agree with you.
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#37Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 12:51pm
"Goth, no one is forcing anyone to do anything contrary to their religious beliefs."
It's government asking a religious organization to tailor their belief system to non-believers. It's against the very principles that this country was founded on.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#38Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 1:01pm
"It's government asking a religious organization to tailor their belief system to non-believers. It's against the very principles that this country was founded on."
You're misrepresenting the facts. Religious organizations are exempt from the requirements. A hospital is not a religious organization.
"It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
-- Thomas Jefferson
#39Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 1:02pm
We are going to have to agree to disagree.
#40Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 1:15pmMadbrian...Like most extreme right wingers, Goth doesn't deal well with facts. You could tell him a million times churches are exempt and he won't care.
#41Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 1:22pm
His utter disregard of--not to say contempt for--the truth never ceases to amaze me.
#42Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 1:27pm
"Are racists dumb? Do conservatives tend to be less intelligent than liberals? A provocative new study from Brock University in Ontario suggests the answer to both questions may be a qualified yes."
Goth helps prove the validity of this study
#43Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 3:02pmHi Mr. Federman, I'm straight. Will you marry me??? Then we can live together and I won't have to stalk you...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha1
#44Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 3:07pmBut, it's hot and muggy in Georgia, Tiny.
#46Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 4:24pmThe whole Catholic church debate is one of the dumbest and most hypocritical arguments ever. Given the history of Catholicism (be it centuries or even the past decade), the idea that they condemn any other institution, be it governmental, religious, or business, on the basis of morality is undeserving of respect or attention. And the more "Christians" demand legislation to align with their belief, the closer we get to an American Taliban. They louder they get, the more atheists they create.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#47Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/7/12 at 4:52pm
"They louder they get, the more atheists they create."
EXACTLY! THAT is what is threatening religion in this country and around the world. These religious folks are just exposing their own hypocracy, and the smarter people are rejecting them. It was much easier to be a fake Catholic, Baptist, Mormon in the old days!
"Carson has combined his passion for helping children with his love for one of Cincinnati's favorite past times - cornhole - to create a unique and exciting event perfect for a corporate outing, entertaining clients or family fun."
"In Oz, the verb is douchifizzation." PRS
"In Oz, the verb is douchifizzation." PRS
#48Slate: Why Won't America Accept Its Atheists?
Posted: 2/8/12 at 1:33pm
An interesting point, via the NY TIMES: "According to a Public Religious Research Institute poll, 55% of Americans and 58% of Catholics agree that 'employers should be required to provide their employees with health care plans that cover contraception and birth control at no cost.'
So it actually sounds like following the will of most Catholics to provide this service.
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