"This is America? This is an outrage."- Page 8

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:43pm

It IS a racial thing. We've been saying that here. If this had happened to a bunch of white people, things would be greatly different.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:47pm

I don't think stranded white people would make the government any more competent. I honestly don't think it is a racial issue. Class, maybe. The more money you have, the easier you can get out. But race? In a city where African Americans are the majority and an African American mayor? I don't think so. I think it's an easy conclusion to leap to when angered and you want answers, but thinking rationally, I don't believe it.

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:48pm

It is most certainly a racial and economic problem.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:50pm

*momentary threadjack*

Jose discovered this, and I don't know if it happens to anyone else, but twice on this thread my posts only appear if you click "Next Page". If you click the page number, they do not. It's some sort of quirks with the pages, just in case anyone was wondering why some responses to my posts make no sense because they don't see the actual post they are responding to. Does that make sense?

*resume discussion*

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:51pm

Thinking rationally? If it had been a bunch of white people, my bet would be that more people in the surrounding areas would show up to help--to take families away to safety. Just one logistic that comes to mind instantly.

Is there a chance I am wrong? Sure. I offer that. But, regardless of whether or not it truly is racism, it must feel that way to the people there and it certainly looks that way to the entire world when 99.5% of the people on the screen are black. It WILL be the perception.

Updated On: 9/2/05 at 07:51 PM

[Plum]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:54pm

Homeless and tempest-tost, huh, Namo?

I don't appreciate being called a racist by a newbie who doesn't know a thing about me. At least the morons who insult me with no semblence of context normally have the temerity to do it to my face.

Let me lay it out more plainly. You know what a refugee is, in my experience? A refugee is someone everybody pities but almost no one wants to take responsibility for. Hopefully robbie's right and that won't be the case this time around.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 7:58pm

Fievel was totally a refugee, remember? I just think about that little hat and scarf and start crying.

I completely think this is about class, and in New Orleans the poor and lower classes are overwhelmingly black. And though most people will agree that America is almost incapable of discussions of race, there is no agreement that there even ARE class disparities in the US.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:00pm

It was an economic problem from the beginning simply because of the people who could no afford to leave. That is obvious. It was not an issue of race until recently when people have time to sit and stew about it. But to say the government purposely slowed their efforts because of the race of the evacuees or refugees or whatever we are calling the survivors in New Orleans seems too easy an excuse when the demographic nature of the city is going to be mostly African American. Is there any proof that white refugees were rescued first? What about those trapped in the hospitals? Did the government have something against sick people, too? White, black, red, yellow, or green, the government reacted slowly. I don't think race would have made Bush or his administration work faster. The African American politicians who took the time to throw around these accusations in a press meeting were outfitted in their best clothes and jewelry saying the government did not do enough to help these people. What the hell are they doing? At least Jesse Jackson is actually there physicaly working on it (even when he is talking in circles).

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:05pm

Well, we may never know if any racism has taken place, but I do know from living in Texas all my life, that there are plenty of people thinking, "Who cares--it's just a bunch of n******." In fact, a friend of mine told me that his grandmother said pretty much that.

And, I could be wrong, but I think a fire might have lighted fasted under certain politician's butts if it had been people who are "more likely to vote a certain way".

I mean--just look at how fast things went for Florida in an election year.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:10pm

That's just really naive, Matt. "It was not an issue of race until people had time to stew about it"? The power-holding majority doesn't, for the LARGE part, act with conscious racism. It's the insidious, unconscious type that people are responding to now. As Jesse Jackson pointed out, this country has a long history of tolerating black pain.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:11pm

"If it had been a bunch of white people, my bet would be that more people in the surrounding areas would show up to help--to take families away to safety."

White or black, people just couldn't access 90% of the city! I-10 was wiped out. That was why people asked why supplies could not have been dropped in from helicopters because no one could drive into the city to hlp these people. People in surrounding areas had loved ones trapped in the city. They simply could not do anything.

Unfortunately, whenever you have an evacuation situation, it will always be about class. It is the government's (local, state, and national) responsibility to prepare to assist the lower classes knowing they will not have the resources to leave. This is about failure of leadership and organization. Period. Bush says, "The results are not acceptable." He says nothing about preparation and response. Results do not happen spontaneously.

Updated On: 9/2/05 at 08:11 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:14pm

Well, hmmmm. The buses sure did find a way to these people. If it had been white folk, it would have been the HOV lane of the century.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:15pm

If only Laci Peterson, Terry Schiavo and Natalee Holloway had been in New Orleans...

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:15pm

or if two men had gotten legally married...

[Plum]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:17pm

That was a joke on LJ yesterday. "Here's how we'll help NOLA! We'll tell the fundies they're giving people abortions down there!"

ETAMore on the press going ape****:
Slate Updated On: 9/2/05 at 08:17 PM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:34pm

The Government's response is inherently racist, not because of something as easy to identify (and loathe) as palpable, premeditated racial hatred. Premediation may not play a role at all. But here we are dealing with a racially lop-sided community. 80% of this major American City is African-American, or other peoples of color. Who census figures reveal to be at the lower end of the income bracket. And yet the evacuation was clearly addressed almost exclusively to those who could afford to leave with relative ease, and critically TO HAVE A PLACE TO GO ONCE THEY LEAVE. This last fact is often overlooked by the commentators. Those in abject poverty seldom have monied family and friends in safer locales.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:51pm

jrb - Having lived in Texas all my life (we're both from there, remember?), I know if my grandmother were alive, she would have said the same thing. She was terribly racist. Meanwhile, my parents jumped the first plane to Houston yesterday and were at the Astrodome immediately to assist. My father and a bunch of other white, hispanic and African American men organized it. And I know for a FACT that the first snag they ran into was when the county decided they needed to stop everything and have meetings about what had already been planned rather than put anything into action. It was about beaurocracy and red tape and who would get credit, not race.

"If only Laci Peterson, Terry Schiavo and Natalee Holloway had been in New Orleans..."

"or if two men had gotten legally married..."

Do I think the President puts his own religious morals first? Absolutely. Do I think the government dragged their feet because of race? No. But I'm sure they're slapping their foreheads now. The black mayor told people to go to the Superdome and the Convention Center and said they would be ok with no backup plan to get them out. Was that racist, too? What other extremist views can we come up with? I think calling "racist" is similar to saying it's the gays' fault. Or maybe it was a North/South issue. Or were the troops Democrats who don't like Bush? We could concoct many theories, but just because it is a liberal view, doesn't make it more correct or valid.

"Well, hmmmm. The buses sure did find a way to these people. If it had been white folk, it would have been the HOV lane of the century."

And there were private organizations that drove charter buses large enough to get some people out. My friend and her sister were on one of them that were sent to Baton Rouge and then to Dallas. They are African American and they will be returning to Chicago today. The difference was, they were trapped at a hotel, not the Superdome or the convention center. If it was truly about race, they probably would have been left behind.

Namo, I'm not being naive. Everyone thinks the racist song in Avenue Q is funny because its true until something like this happens. Then the reality of it suddenly becomes an excuse. I simply am not going to substitute incompetence by playing the race card. Yes, racism exists, and race and class are definitely related in this country. Duh! I'mnot saying that's not true. I'm saying I don't think it is the reason the reaction was so slow. 99.5% of the survivors shown on TV are black because that is who is truly left there. Had it been Houston, It would have been more like 50% black and 45% hispanic. Had everyone been white, I think the government would still have been slow as sh*t.

[Plum]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:54pm

Interesting comparison to the Chicago heat wave of 1995, which also predominantly affected poor blacks.

And here's a lovely factoid- FEMA, early 2001, named the 3 biggest potential disasters it could think of: A terrorist attack on New York, a hurricane in New Orleans, and an earthquake in San Francisco. Let's hope the third doesn't come to pass, as well.

ETA- Once again, I'm stunned by Republican sensitivity and leadership. Bill Frist has moved to get the Senate to vote on what's reall important- repealing the estate tax. Because heaven knows giving another frickin' tax break to millionaires is what this country really needs. God, this just makes me want to salute the flag.

Slate Updated On: 9/2/05 at 08:54 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:58pm

Your examples don't negate the possibility (and I have already said that I could be wrong) that racism has been involved. I never aimed to imply that ALL of it was racism. Perhaps, it would have been more succinct to have said racism has been likely present. Would that make you happier?

And, I do remember you are from Texas. I'm not yet senile.

And do not presume that because I adopt an opinion, it is because it is liberal. I have held conservative opinions. Shock! Surprise!

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 8:59pm

When it comes to volunteers in the surrounding states giving shelter to the displaced people of New Orleans, who's going to let the poor black unwed young mother with 6 kids stay with them for an extended period of time?

Now who would let a nice white middle class college student stay in their home?

This was my problem in the other thread that so many people jumped on me for. I had friends in New Orleans that I'm not worried about because I know they had the resources to make it out in time. They had a story on CNN earlier about tourists that were trapped in the Ritz Carlton and all 300 of them were evacuated quickly. The woman they talked to was flown on a private jet back to Baltimore.

The people in the convention center, the Superdome, the Astrodome, those being pulled off of rooftops or wading through raw sewage in the streets (the majority of whom are black) are the ones that need the most. Normally I hate media overkill, but I think the news networks are showing the whole country what needs they need to see.

It may not be entirely racist, but it's definitely discrimination.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 9:01pm

Christ, Matt. There isn't much that can be viewed in the US culture without the lens of race.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 9:02pm

Well, I agree that there is class discrimination for sure. Whether or not it is directly connected to racism is certainly a huge question. And, while I know it's easy to dismiss Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for pulling out the race card, I wouldn't be so quick to automatically dismiss them. NONE of us on BWW know for a FACT what is up.

[Plum]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 9:04pm

In more fun news, weather forcasters at Colorado State University are saying there's a 43% chance the U.S. will get hit with a major hurricane in September, and a 15% chance in October. September is traditionally the most active month of hurricane season. Joy.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 9:06pm

September is the big hurricane month. Luckily, it's one-fifteenth over already.

In more bad news, Paula Zahn just used the dreaded e-word. She mentioned a CNN reporter who is embedded with the national guard. It might be interesting to see how that affects the coverage.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 9/2/05 at 9:06pm

"And yet the evacuation was clearly addressed almost exclusively to those who could afford to leave with relative ease, and critically TO HAVE A PLACE TO GO ONCE THEY LEAVE. This last fact is often overlooked by the commentators. Those in abject poverty seldom have monied family and friends in safer locales."

That is a subject of class, not race. New Orleans has an African American majority, which stands to reason that many of those with the means to leave were indeed African Americans. The fact that this tragedy occurred in a city with an African American majority is a matter of circumstance. The idea that the government's response was inherently racist is speculation. What natural disaster featuring the TOTAL EVACUATION OF A MAJOR AMERICAN CITY do we have to compare it to? Saying the government did not respond as quickly because the people were black is naive. Saying the government did not respond as quickly because of poor planning and organization is rational. How many major American cities' lowest classes are predominately white that we could compare this to? Race and class are inherently connected in this country. That is true. But, I don't think a change in race would have improved how this particular situation was handled. I think it's an interesting way to spark debate, but not a realistic conclusion.

Updated On: 9/2/05 at 09:06 PM