Toby in "Sweeney" movie---SPOILERS- Page 2

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 11/30/07 at 8:25pm

Really, when I see that clip of Not While I'm Around, I see this heartbreaking innocence the actor has, and frankly, I think that makes the song more heartbreaking. Here's this little boy, who's been abused, and now has found someone who he thinks loves him. So when he gets this suspicion about Todd, he loves her so much that he sings this song to her. And I think his innocence and clear devotion for her makes her part in the song sadder, because we know from the way Lovett's music is orchestrated, she would throw him in a ditch to get what she wants. She could care less about this boy.

And how would his being a child make the ending laughable. I think it makes it shocking. Here's this little boy, who's been treated so awfully through most of his life, and he's driven so far to insanity to KILL someone. A child driven far enough to kill someone isn't laughable to me, it's immensely disturbing.

[DG]

Posted: 11/30/07 at 8:36pm

"A child driven far enough to kill someone isn't laughable to me, it's immensely disturbing."

That's exactly the scenario that Stanley Kubrick created at the end of FULL METAL JACKET, when you discover that the sniper they've been trying to catch is a young girl. It wasn't laughable in that film, and I certainly don't see how it would make it laughable in SWEENEY.

[JoshuaEads]

Posted: 11/30/07 at 9:30pm

Best12, you said , "But Tobias was always a child until the Sondheim musical." Well, this IS the Sondheim musical.

Not starting anything, just playing devil's advocate.

That being said; TouchMe, I completely agree with everything you've said. It is my personal opinion that it destroys the intentions and development of the character by having him played so young. I, like you, hope that they've retooled his plotline a bit to have it make more sense this way. All of this certainly has me awaiting Dec. 21st very anxiously!

Just my two cents.

~Joshua

[roquat]

Posted: 11/30/07 at 10:51pm

CAN an eleven-year-old boy, crazed or not, slit a grown man's throat?

Just asking.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 11/30/07 at 11:03pm

Why not? I think at the point when Sweeney dies, he is so numb with grief that he probably doesn't really take much notice as to what Tobias is doing.

[wickedfiyeroofoz]

Posted: 11/30/07 at 11:45pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6itTonIO8WA


just in case no one's seen it :)

[justagirl2]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 7:02pm

I have to agree with ww and besty...I think it's a haunting portrayal of the song, and I have a feeling that the kid's performance leading up to it will justify the detachment. The ending will be that much more distressing, regardless of how it's played, due just to the principle of a young child being capable of murder like that. I absolutely think an eleven year-old can slit a grown man's throat. People that age have stabbed their parents before, shot others.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 7:05pm

Since this seems to be a good discussion of the character, do you think Tobias knew what Mrs Lovett did? Did he know she was killed?

[Mythus]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 7:58pm

What do you mean exactly by "what she did"? That she put people into pies? That she locked him in the bakehouse? That she lied to Sweeney about his wife?

And I assume Toby knew she was killed...considering that he hops out of the sewer a couple lines later. I always figured he was hiding in there, watching/listening. It would be hard not to hear Mrs. Lovett's screams.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:11pm

Putting people into meat pies, yes.

[nitsua]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:23pm

I've always thought Toby took revenge on Sweeney by killing him. Why else would he kill him? Sweeney didn't do anything to him.

I think baking corpses was the last of their problems.

At least he lets that one man go...

[artscallion]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:33pm

It's hard to say. Toby has to have something motivating his sentiments in "Not While I'm Around." He talks about demons and men and we know he means Sweeney. I'd say that either he knows something at that point, or it's just a child's innocent insight into people which makes him sense Todd is up to something terrible.

In any event, he also talks about Lovett being led astray all unbeknownst or whatever. I think this implies that under either theory, he has attached her to the deeds as well. But I think he's so attached to the hope for his future that he sees in her, that he goes into denial about her being a willing participant.

If you imagine this dynamic going on in his head while he's singing, his little soldier stance makes even more sense. He's afraid of her even as he clings to her as his only hope.

Updated On: 12/1/07 at 08:33 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:34pm

Toby is locked in the bakehouse by Mrs. Lovett and witnesses the sequential deaths of the Beadle, the Judge, the Beggar Woman and Mrs. Lovett... all within a short time span.

He also realizes all the "carnage" that came before them.

That is as much as his little mind can take. He snaps.

He is "gone" from that moment on.

He kills Sweeney to very simply END IT.

[nitsua]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:43pm

What I don't like about the new ending (of the movie) is that Sweeney knows he's going to die.

I've only seen the stage show once, and I didn't get that impression.

EDITED: Since the title of this thread has "SPOILERS" in it, I feel comfortable giving away the ending. Sorry.

Updated On: 12/1/07 at 08:43 PM

[artscallion]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:45pm

Did you just give away the ending of the movie, austin, or are you talking about the revival?

[nitsua]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:50pm

I'm talking about the movie.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 8:55pm

I've always assumed Tobias had a suspicion about Sweeney, but he wasn't quite sure about it.

And art, I've never seen it as being afraid of her and clinging to her. I think that's a really fascinating way to look at it.

[artscallion]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 9:00pm

Spoilers about Sweeney plot points is one thing, austin. But people that are very familiar with the plot and have seen the clips would expect those things to be discussed here, with the spoiler being for people who don't know the plot of Sweeney or have chosen not to watch the available clips, NOT to reveal the changed ending to a film none of us have seen yet!

But I'm glad you're "comfortable."

Updated On: 12/1/07 at 09:00 PM

[keen on kean]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 9:09pm

In the relevant time period, a young child was not a coddled school child. Children were customarily set to work in miserable jobs and vile conditions. Someone who had worked in the city of London since the age of five or six could be expected to have seen everything and done a lot of very adult things that are unthinkable for today's protected children. So young may not mean innocent in the sense of knowledge and experience that we assume in modern life.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 9:13pm

Tobias was anything but innocent.

He was beyond his limit though. And he'd had enough.

[nitsua]

Posted: 12/1/07 at 9:30pm

Oh, I didn't know I had to discriminate. I've only read the screenplay, so Tim could've changed it.

Or maybe not.

[touchmeinthemorning]

Posted: 12/2/07 at 1:55am

What exactly did Toby do that made him not innocent?

Also, stage version play the ending in many different ways: Sweeney extends his neck to Toby and Toby pounces on him and kills him. They are both perfectly find ways to do it. I don't think this is a premeditated "Toby had enough" as much as it is "Toby snapped and was no longer in control of what he was doing"...it was less premeditated, i think.

but, as best12 continues to say, and i wish to echo, we don't knwo how the script has changed the story, so i want to withhold judgement until then.

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 12/2/07 at 5:58pm

I have to agree with touchmeinthemorning...I didn't think Toby had any sense of motivation in that scene. I'm not sure if it's the child's fault or that Burton wanted him to play it that way. Anyhow, it's the one acting scene in the clips that just has me going "huh?".

I do not have a problem with Toby being young though. In the production I did in high school (well it was a high school/middle school production) our Toby was 12. (What was funny though was our Judge was 13...and we didn't cut his Johanna).

Updated On: 12/2/07 at 05:58 PM

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 12/2/07 at 6:06pm

That's funny, because in most productions I've scene (and if I remember correctly, the George Hearn concert cast, Sweeney looks like he is resigned to his fate. He lifts his neck up for Toby to slit.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 12/2/07 at 6:47pm

"What I don't like about the new ending (of the movie) is that Sweeney knows he's going to die."

First off, thanks for really ruining the ending. Christ!


And to answer your question, Sweemy has nothing to live for at that point. He's taken his revenge and killed everyone that got in his way. After finding out that he killed his own wife, he just gave up.