Am I Racist for Liking "The King and I?" — Page 4

OlBlueEyes said: "I may be 30 years or more since I last saw the film.

Deborah describes the scene.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-09-18-ca-2392-story.html

Here are 12 different takes on different "Shall We Dance" numbers.

https://www.broadwaybox.com/daily-scoop/12-versions-of-shall-we-dancefor-internationaldanceday/

The sharpestmoment in the film appears to me to be after thedance when Yul levels a steamygaze at Deborah and she looks back at him, panting. He approaches, hand extended.

In great contrast Kelli and Ken in London after the polka separate and they throw their heads back and laugh.

Lou Diamond Phillips looks absolutely goofy. Who did his choreography?

You're not predicting that there will never be another major Broadway revival of Show Boat and/or The King and I?

"

Was that last question directed at me? I make no such predictions. How would I know what some producer and/or director will decide is acceptable in some future season?

(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.) Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)

GavestonPS said: "
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.)Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)

Oh, dear! Before doing anymore work on the play, do some research. If the Indians, Black and Latino characters are three dimensional people; not worn-out tropes, there might not be a problem. As for who will play them, cast Indian, Latinx and Black actors. Saying you don't know any it not an excuse to not cast them.
"

In reference to a suggestion regarding the use of a program note indicating that The King and I is a fictionalized tale that incorporates historical figures joevitus said:

"There is zero need to do anything of the kind. It isn't a history lesson. It's a musical about liberalism vs. conservatism in a "faraway land." No one had the intention of presenting either Anna Leonowens or King Mongkut accurately.

I suspect she'd be as offended by the insinuation that she might have had erotic feelings for him as the Thai people are over the dipiction of a beloved ruler. AND NONE OF THAT MATTERS."

I wouldn't say "zero need to do anything of the kind". Even within this thread, there's evidence that, in general, audience members are unaware of the differences between what is factual and what was fictionalized. The show paints the King as a fictional character pretty much the opposite of who he really was.

Since "no one had the intention of presenting either Anna Leonowens or King Mongkut accurately", I still believe it would be a responsible, and more importantly, a respectful act to include an acknowledgement stating so. To be clear though, I'm not saying has to.

I disagree that TK&I is "a musical about liberalism vs. conservatism". Both Anna and the King are on the same side regarding several liberal views in regards to change for Siam. The major conflict is more specifically in regards to misogyny vs respect for women as equals (or male dominance over females). Male ego vs Female intelligence. A battle of the sexes. The male is portrayed as "barbaric" and the females are portrayed as sensible, caring and intelligent. I think that in the 1950s, many women saw elements of their husbands in the King, and of themselves in Anna.

Methods for resolving the conflict(s) include the female manipulating the male into thinking her ideas are his, and temporarily demonstrating submissiveness as a way of 'losing the battle to win the war'. Evidence that the battle is won comes when the Prince (next generation male) issues his first proclamation; which is contrary to historical fact, but necessary for plot purposes of this show.

Updated On: 6/23/20 at 08:38 AM

Oh dear! Blue, you have much to learn. Yes, white colonists gained a great deal from the mother country. The same can not be saidfor non-whites in this country. Do someresearch. I hope youaren't one of those who think slavery wasn't so bad after all.

Calm down Director. I admit to your moral superiority. Feel better?

I really wasn't thinking about domestic affairs. The choice was whether the British retained the North American colonies and kept them under her protection, or whether they just left the colonies to fend for themselves.

The colonists in the north did very well in some ways under the British. Reading accounts of the Battle of Long Island, where the Brits forced Washington's army to retreat secretly back to Manhattan at night, The British and Prussians were extremely impressed with the bounty on Long Island. The fruit tree groves. The orderly farms. So much vacant land. The colonists were living much better than the average Brit.

As for slavery, you may be right that England got us hooked on slavery. But doesn't it seem possible if not likely that we would have had slavery absent the British? The number of slaves working on the sugar plantations of the West Indies dwarfed those of the American colonies, I'm pretty sure that the New England merchantmen would have wanted a position in the very lucrative slave trade and carrying slaves to the South to complete the triangle would have flowed normally. Can't say for sure. You may be right.

Molasses to rum to slaves
Who sail the ships back to Boston
Ladened with gold, see it gleam
Whose fortunes are made in the triangle trade
Hail slavery, the New England dream!
Mr. Adams, I give you a toast:
Hail Boston! Hail Charleston!
Who stinketh the most?







"

"

That's nicely put. You sound like a beautiful soul. I'm guessing you already know it, but if you don't, I recommend Masked: The Life of Anna Leonowens, Schoolmistress at the Court of Siam by Alfred Habegger. Lots of info about her real (as opposed to made up) life (including her invented surname) and the truth as opposed to the fiction of Siam and the reign of King Mongkut.

A Director said: "GavestonPS said: "
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.)Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)

Oh, dear! Before doing anymore work on the play, do some research. If the Indians,Black and Latino characters are threedimensional people; not worn-out tropes, there might not be a problem. As for who willplay them, cast Indian, Latinx and Black actors. Saying you don't know any it not an excuse to not cast them.
"

"

What is your issue with me!? I've done years of research: the details I included in my brief summary might have been a hint to you if you weren't so determined to paint me as some sort of Neanderthal. (Oops! Current research suggests Neanderthals weren't as backwards as once supposed, and may have been the victims of genocide by Homo Sapiens. My bad!) As a matter of fact, the project is an opera; I don't know how many Native American opera singers there are in the world, nor how many will be available if, when and where the piece is performed.

Look at the differing views on THE KING AND I, which has the advantage of being a much beloved classic. Now imagine creating a new work that won't have that advantage and try predicting the discussion at "Liberal State" several years from now! Your assertion that acceptance of a work is simply a matter of "well-rounded characters" is belied by the fusses over TK&I, WSS, SHOW BOAT, EVITA and PORGY AND BESS. For some, the material won't matter as much as the categories into which the writers fall.

I spent five years in graduate school and a decade-and-a-half teaching at a well-known, liberal university. There is no issue of dramatic representation or the politics thereof that I haven't discussed and taught ad nauseam. So enough of your facile lectures! You should be able to better read your audience.

Oscar Hammerstein III was a major force in the fight for civil rights. Remember he wrote "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught." You're probably racist (everyone's a little bit) but not because of The King & I.

GavestonPS said: "A Director said: "GavestonPS said: "
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.)Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)

Oh, dear! Before doing anymore work on the play, do some research. If the Indians,Black and Latino characters are threedimensional people; not worn-out tropes, there might not be a problem. As for who willplay them, cast Indian, Latinx and Black actors. Saying you don't know any it not an excuse to not cast them.
"

"

What is your issue with me!? I've done years of research: the details I included in my brief summary might have been a hint to you if you weren't so determined to paint me as some sort of Neanderthal. (Oops! Current research suggests Neanderthals weren't as backwards as once supposed, and may have been the victims of genocide by Homo Sapiens. My bad!) As a matter of fact, the project is an opera; I don't know how many Native American opera singers there are in the world, nor how many will be available if, when and where the piece is performed.

Look at the differing views on THE KING AND I, which has the advantage of being a much beloved classic. Now imagine creating a new work that won't have that advantage and try predicting the discussion at "LiberalState" several years from now! Your assertion that acceptance of a work is simply a matter of "well-rounded characters" is belied by the fusses over TK&I, WSS, SHOW BOAT,EVITA and PORGY AND BESS. For some, the material won't matter as much as the categories into which the writers fall.

I spent five years in graduate school and a decade-and-a-half teaching at a well-known, liberal university. There is no issue of dramatic representation or the politics thereofthat I haven't discussed and taught ad nauseam. So enough of your facile lectures! You should be able to better read your audience.

You said you were working on a play, so I took you at your word. Now, you say it's an opera. Which is it?

By the way, I'm not impressed when people wave around their Vita or name drop the famous people they've worked with.
"

A Director said: "
You said you were working on a play, so I took you at your word. Now, you say it's an opera. Which is it?

By the way, I'm not impressed when people wave around their Vita or name drop the famous people they've worked with.
"

"

An opera is one form of musical play, one with very special requirements. I was trying to be brief and not hijack this thread into a discussion of my own projects. You knew nothing about my work except for the four or five sentences I included, yet you felt qualified to lecture me on how to write. Just as last week you felt qualified to accuse me of racist attitudes my post had already refuted. You are a careless reader and a lousy judge of character.

I did not present anyone with a C.V. I merely mentioned my experience in liberal spheres where the issues you parrot on a childish level are discussed to the nth degree! If I have mentioned celebrities with whom I've worked, it was only because it seemed germaine to the discussion. The vast majority of my years of work has NOT been in celebrity-driven theaters, nor have I ever claimed otherwise.

I'm not the only poster to whom you have condescended in this thread, I am merely among the most unlikely. You can skip my posts in the future, please. I am confident of my opinion that you are almost certainly a lousy director, lacking the observation and comprehension skills required to interpret a text with any degree of success.

Thanks, Blue. The sanctimony was just getting too thick in here.

As for name-dropping, I try to be very careful and precise about it. I only use first names if the celebrity in question TOLD me to call him or her by his/her first name. Otherwise, I use the last name, as with Mr. Brynner. And I am careful to distinguish between personal friends (almost none of mine are famous in any sense of the word) and celebrities I worked with, in most cases long ago.

I really have no idea what A Director was talking about on that score.

As for my so-called "CV", I would have put more effort into it if I were trying to impress.

***

This isn't specific just to the poster we are discussing, but I think social media in general has become that famous "liberal, circular firing squad" of which Obama once spoke. And this is dangerous in the face of the greatest threat to our republic since the Civil War.

Is Jill Stein running again? Because I have moments...

ETA because I omitted the key word.

Updated On: 6/26/20 at 05:38 PM

GavestonPS said: "Thanks, Blue. The sanctimony was just getting too thick in here.

As for name-dropping, I try to be very careful and precise about it. I only use first names if the celebrity in question TOLD me to call him or her by his/her first name. Otherwise, I use the last name, as with Mr. Brynner. And I am careful to distinguish between personal friends (almost none of mine are famous in any sense of the word)and celebrities I worked with, in most cases long ago.

I really have no idea what A Director was talking about on that score.

As for my so-called "CV", I would have put more effort into it if I were trying to impress.

***

This isn't specific just to the poster we are discussing, but I think social media in general has become that famous "liberal firing squad" of which Obama once spoke. And this is dangerous in the face of the greatest threat to our republic since the Civil War.

Is Jill Stein running again? Because I have moments..."

Preach!

Lanie J said: "With all respect. may I please ask what you meant by "who did not understand the rules under which this board operates," because I'm not quite sure what you mean. Did I do something wrong? If so, I apologize."

Lanie, I know it's tough to jump in here. It's like choosing a table on your first day of high school and not knowing the "rules" of who can sit where.

But I want you to know that having chatted with OlBlueEyes for years, it was clear to me he meant "board rules" in a metaphorical sense; i.e., you didn't know the type of quarrel a simple, honest question might incite.

I feel sure everyone reading here knew he wasn't accusing you of violating the official Terms of Service. You are a lovely young woman--and a smart one--a true asset to this board. Keep asking your questions and don't worry about our shenanigans.