Analyzing Sweeney Todd solely based on the original production- Page 3

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/29/06 at 7:58pm

NobodyHome I am obsessed with you.

I love that you brought up what the dirt in the grave scene did to Carious voice. He is the only sweeney as far as I am concerned.

[COOOOLkid]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 6:35pm

How did Cariou portrayed his death?

[morosco]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 6:57pm

I pulled out my program from when the tour played the Kennedy Center in Nov of 1980 and there's no "Johanna" listed for Judge Turpin in the list of musical numbers. Jim Coleman, the musical director for that tour, posts here every so often. Hopefully he can clarify if the song was ever song during the original tour.

[morosco]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 7:02pm

Also of note from the original tour...the Kennedy Center program lists 26 musicians in the pit. Those were the days.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/22/07 at 7:58pm

Damn, this is the BET THREAD EVER.

I was so into it and the realized it was started, and most of it written, last October... But here's my 2 cents.

“Now, I've always been confused about the Judge's Johanna. Was it actually cut from the original production, as in before it opened? I knew it was cut from subsequent versions, but I guess just b/c it's on the OBC CD, I never realized it might have even been cut from the original as well. What is everyone's thoughts on that? Is it a necessary song or should it be cut?”


Personally, I think it add to the character of the judge. It tells of his motivations, and also makes him slightly more sympathetic.

But, I can also understand why so many folks cut it, as it is a scene with an older man flogging himself to a climax over a girl who is less than half His age.


I have now dug out the DVD and will be enjoying it again this afternoon.

Posted: 1/23/07 at 3:47am

Ah I wish I could see the TOFT filming--I'm damn happyw e even have the tour on DVD but I've never fully warmed to Hearns and the less said about Joanna the better (plus it would be cool tohave the full impact of the original set though I know most was used for the tour).

I knwo this is an old thread but someone called Prince surprisingly cowardly with some of his decisions (the meeskite line in Cabaret, the ending of Company and cutting Joanna specifically). In these cases I think that's an unfair word choice--I can't remember the full reasons but I know with Cabaret he went back and forth on the word choice a few times (and for 1967 so much of that original productionw as still so brave--it's easy to look back now on Cliff being straight, etc,a nd not feel it was right but...).

I distinctly remember reading somewhere Joanna was cut, indeed, because Prince said he just couldn't find a way to stage it where it didn't seem too grotesque (I loved how the number was sstaged in the Royal National Theater revival around 1992 which I think is my fave intimate version of the show--i even play the BBC audio recording of it a lot and noticed that that site we can't mention now hasa clip of Julia McKenzie performing Worst Pies in costume at the Olivier awards)

As for Company--i love Happily Ever After and as a teenager was obssessed with that's how the show should end. I've completely changed my mind on that--it just feels liek to END the show with that song now would sorta bring it to a "what was that??" conclusion. I'm pretty sure I've read Sondheim himself say that Prince's decision made sense in the end (though he also said, I believe, that the only time he saw the song and felt it worked was at a Circle in the Square production). Certainly Prince has never pretended not to be a *commercial* director and some concessions have to be made--(man another TOFT video I'd love to see--their B&W tape of the original Company tour)

(I have always hoped that they'd do a decent recording of Happily Ever After though with the Tunick orchestrations)

That BBC Making of Sweeney is a brilliant program though
Updated On: 1/23/07 at 03:47 AM

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 12:47pm

When I interviewed Hal Prince in 1993 he commented that there were very few changes in SWEENEY between 1st preview and openng night. He says he cut the Judge's number, partly because it was too gruesome but also the first act was overlong and needed some trimming. It appears Sondheim and Wheeler agreed and rewrote the dialgue to accomodate it.

I think that in 1979 SWEENEY was demandng an awful lot of audiences and maybe Johanna was the one number that would have pushed it too far over the edge.

It was not in the post-Broadway tour with Lansbury nor the 2nd tour with June Havoc. It WAS added back when the show was done by NYCO in 1984 and has been in most productions I have seen since then.

[D2]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 1:04pm

The first time I saw SWEENEY TODD was at the Wednesday matinee preview the day before it opened. It was also the first time I had ever seen a Sondheim musical. I cut school to go. I didn't quite know what I had seen but I knew that whatever it was it was brilliant and gave me new ways of looking at the world - a better learning experience than anything I was getting in art school. After that performance (in a half empty Uris/Gershwin) I saw Hal Prince just standing at the back of the theater. I spoke to him, and he was interested in what a teenager thought of the show. I don't remember what I said, I know I gushed as only an 18 year can do, but I do remember his reply; "Thank you. But I think it will close on Saturday."

I remain in awe of the work - it is a true masterpiece, not just in it's scope and it's vision, but also in that it can stand up to almost any interpretation and still retain it's brilliance.

[jv92]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 1:27pm

I read through all of this wonderful stuff and came upon a post I don't remember seeing about Sondheim's dislike for Brecht and this immediatelly came to my head...
"So that's why he doesn't like Cabaret!"

[Danielm]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 2:42pm

Wonderful thread here. Interesting Nobodyhome about the Brechtian thing. People often mistake Sondheim's material as expressing his own opinion. The same misinterpretation is common for Assassins where critics mistakenly believe that the ballad singer is expressing the beliefs or opinions of the writers rather than expressing commonly held views of the day.

In regard to the revival of Sweeney Todd--I really enjoyed it though I would not want to see it always performed like that as I really miss the chorus and orchestrations. I also think the revival got muddy in the narrative--especially in the second act and people who didn't know the story could easily get lost. When I saw it in London, after Johanna, disguised as the sailor, escapes I heard some people whispering "Did he kill her?" At that point in the show it's like a steam engine with so much happening that, as much as I enjoyed the style of the revival, I think the narrative gets lost.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 3:13pm

Just to answer a question earlier in the thread, the set (by Eugene Lee) used entire chunks of a factory brought in from New Jersey. They actually had to rebuild the proscenium and parts of backstage to make it fit.

[Oliver Brownlow]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 4:39pm

I don't know if it's still like this on the CD release, but I think a lot of people are probably unaware that when the Original Broadway Cast Album of SWEENEY was first released on LPs, in order to make the four LP sides roughly equal in length, the Judge's version of "Johanna" was placed out of sequence (in a different place than the song had occupied in the score on stage). When I first heard it placed back in its original position, I was impressed at the clever way the song transitioned into the following scene. As you may remember, the Judge's song ends with the words, "...Soft White Cool Virgin Palms ...." And the following scene picks up immediately with the Beggar Woman singing, "Alms ... alms ..." -- almost like an echo.

Posted: 1/23/07 at 4:50pm

"Also, just for personal desire, I totally wish we would have had a Cariou dvd for the L.A. concert What was the reason, was he sick or had a prior engagement? I know Hearn was a last minute replacement for him."

I thought Hearn was the last minute replacement for Bryn Terfel.

[sondhead]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 5:19pm

"The opening scene/set depicts the social order of nineteenth-century England. The shriek of the factory whistle serves not only to scare the audience, but to focus on the factory, where most of the workers were during the Industrial Revolution, and demonstrates the power of the owners."

I always thought it was there to signify the social order being broken. It was an addition by Hal Prince and has to do with the whole "those above serving those down below" aspect of Prince's direction. After all, the factory whistle is blown when the work day is over and the powers that be no longer have power over the little people.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 6:05pm

Thanks for that observation, Sondhead. I mean, the factory in itself is an example of that, but that is definitely an important part.

So if the whistle always goes off when Sweeney kills people, is it also serving as an example of the backwards-ness, "those above serving those down below"? God, you can never stop analyzing this show!

Posted: 1/23/07 at 8:05pm

When exactly did Sondheim say he disliked Cabaret? (i never found Cabaret truly Brechtian anyway--just using some Brechtian techniques but for a very different purpose)

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 8:34pm

I don't think the chnage in running order had anything to do with the length of the Lp side. If it had been placed in its proper location it would have still been near the middle of Side Two. (It is placed after "Wait" on teh record and should be before it.)

I always assumed that Thomas Sheppard placed it where he did to cover for the missing dialogue scene. After "Wait" there is a lengthy scene where Tobias and Pirelli arrive that was mostly dialogue and was left off the record. Also by placing the Judge's number right before "KIss Me" it neatly sets up Johanna's line "He measn to marry me Monday..."

[sondhead]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 9:14pm

"So if the whistle always goes off when Sweeney kills people, is it also serving as an example of the backwards-ness, "those above serving those down below"? God, you can never stop analyzing this show!"

Yea, if you look at the show, every time the whistle blows, the social chain has been broken. That was Prince's concept, beginning with the lowly gravediggers (the lowest on that beehive social-chart curtain at the beginning) yanking down the entire London social order. This concept and symoblism is not only in effect when it is after Sweeney murders someone, it is for each time the whistle is used.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 9:17pm

I Love this thread. All the points made on this thread are so amazing and informative.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 10:01pm

I watched it again last night.. Loved it.

Except for Johanna. God, I forgot how awful that actress was, and she was so sharp it hurt my ears at times.


Question: What are the initial (J.I.P I belive) that are embroidered on the front of the Judges ascot for? What do they stand for?

Updated On: 1/23/07 at 10:01 PM

Posted: 1/23/07 at 10:04pm

Apparantly when Betsy started in the role of Joanna she was *much* better--her voice and acting became more and more a cartoon as the tour progressed (I believe she had played the role as a replacement on Broadway initially)

[D2]

Posted: 1/23/07 at 10:06pm

She replaced Sarah Rice midway through the Broadway run of the show, and she was much better when she started in the show than she was by the time the show was filmed.

[sondhead]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 12:07am

Yea, I do NOT have a copy of the home camcorder filming of Sweeney with Angela and Len with Betsy and Chris as the lovers from the Lincoln Center Archives and can NOT tell you that you can barely even tell they're the same people from the tour filming.

The funniest thing about Betsy Joslyn as Johanna on that DVD is that she had it transposed up a half step for her. That's why it sounds like that. Odd, eh?

She was also a replacement witch in Into the Woods on Broadway. Hard to imagine.

[sondhead]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 12:07am

AND if I'm not mistaken she was married to George Hearn at the time.. another tidbit!

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 12:27am

For snyone who saw Hearn and Cariou, how did their performances differ? I love Len on the CD and wish the show was taped with him it it.