Analyzing Sweeney Todd solely based on the original production- Page 4

[D2]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 12:40am

Cariou was understated and coolly unemotional except during EPHIPHANY. The effect was chilling and mesmerizing. Hearn was, as can be seen in the DVD, completely over the top, chewing the scenery with nearly operatic grandeur at every opportunity. Fun to watch, but not nearly as creepily effective as Cariou. But the most interesting thing in the theater, at least for me, was the pairings. Lansbury played beautifully against Cariou - her over-the-top brilliance pinged off Cariou's understatement. Conversely, Dorothy Loudon underplayed Mrs. Lovett - she was much nastier and coarser, a transparently evil woman. She was also very funny, but more subdued than was usual for her and it balanced Hearn's rather large performance.

Posted: 1/24/07 at 7:56am

Yeah tho I half assed defended the tour DVD I think Len is mesmorising on the CD (and he's equally amazing in the very different role in the original CD *and* film of A Little Night Music). I wouylda killed to have seen him.

Betsy wanted to show off her well known high range I believe I read--she wa a Hal Prince fave though and he structured his flop A Doll's life around her. I am pretty sure she also played Dot in Sunday at one point and I know several people who have said that shew as *wonderful* as the witch in Into the Woods (I've heard worse things about Cleo Laine in the role during the same tour)

[D2]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 9:43am

She did play Dot briefly in the winter/early spring of 1985, before being replaced by the wonderful Maryann Plunkett.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 10:44am

"Question: What are the initial (J.I.P I belive) that are embroidered on the front of the Judges ascot for? What do they stand for? "


Anyone?

[sondhead]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 10:59am

"Betsy wanted to show off her well known high range I believe I read"

I always thought it was because she wanted to sound like a bird, with that warbling vibrato (I'm actually being serious, not just putting her performance down!) which I understand, but when it's that annoying to listen to, so much so that you can't appreciate the composition, it just doesn't work.

[Eastwickian]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 11:09am

"Question: What are the initial (J.I.P I belive) that are embroidered on the front of the Judges ascot for? What do they stand for? "

I assumed it was something to do with being Justice of the Peace? Possibly something in Latin to make it fit...? Maybe it's one he had done himself:

Jolly Irritable Person?
Judge In Pain?
Just Impaled Protestants?

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 11:17am

Too Funny...


The intials just stuck in my mind. I know they have to stand for SOMETHING, I just can't figure out what.

[sidjones09]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 11:20am

I have to admit that enjoying everyone's discussion here about Sweeney forced me to go back and listen again. It's one of those shows for me that I hear something new each time I listen. I think that the 'Kiss Me' duet into 'Ladies and there Sensitivities' and then culminating into the quartet at the end combining the two of is one of the most brilliant things I've heard in music.

[morosco]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 11:24am

"I think that the 'Kiss Me' duet into 'Ladies and there Sensitivities' and then culminating into the quartet at the end combining the two of is one of the most brilliant things I've heard in music."

I agree. The whole sequence is stunning on the OCR.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 1/24/07 at 12:16pm

How did Cariou portrayed his death?

It's very creepy. His throat gets cut and he lets out this hiss and shakes. It just looks very realistic.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 8/6/07 at 8:18pm

Bumping this thread because I have a question (and I've been on a Sweeney kick):

On the opening night for the OBC (no, I wasn't *there*), at the end of the Final Ballad, Sweeney and Lovett sing different lyrics than they do on the OBCR. They sing:

SWEENEY: To kill for love is such a thrill
LOVETT: You don't even notice you lose what you kill

Anyone know why (and when) these lyrics were changed?

Updated On: 8/6/07 at 08:18 PM

[SilverMoonstar3]

Posted: 1/2/08 at 1:25pm

Okay, wow. I just read every post of this thread because I had been hearing people debate something from the play (of course, sparked by the movie, since it's in theater right now). Is Lucy Anthony's actual mother? I looked up the script of the play, and it says: "ANTHONY: One moment, mother. (She turns) Perhaps you know whose house this is?
BEGGAR WOMAN: That! That's the great JUDGE TURPIN's house, that is." The question was whether Anthony was using "mother" to be polite or whether she actually is his mother (from at the party with the Judge). If she is... then he's Johanna's half brother and has no clue... Oh the incest.
The script I got this from

[roseaddams]

Posted: 1/2/08 at 2:02pm

'Mother' would be a term of respect in that manner -- why would Anthony suddenly realize that a random stranger is his mother? So, no, the Beggar Woman is not Anthony's mother.

Notice he also refers to Mrs. Lovett as "Mum" during the show. As does Toby during "Not While I'm Around' (despite having motherly affection towards Mrs. Lovett, Toby knows that she isn't his real mother). Same principle.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 1/2/08 at 3:09pm

He calls her "Mum" as in "ma'am" with a British accent. But your point about Lucy still stands.

[D2]

Posted: 1/2/08 at 3:39pm

Anthony calling the Beggar Woman "mother" is not only a colloquialism, it is one of the many clues that run through the stage version as to her real identity. Another (visual) clue in the original production: she also carried Johanna's doll with her throughout the show.

[roseaddams]

Posted: 1/2/08 at 3:55pm

Burton did something similar in the film -- she's wearing the same hat in the flashbacks and in the present, though it's much more dirty and tattered.

[ichyn]

Posted: 6/10/08 at 11:37am

Amazing thread, you guys! I know I´m a little late, but I haven´t been a Sweeney Fan for so long (now it is my favorite^^). It´s just such a rich and atmospheric score, gives you something new everytime you listen to it.

I enjoyed reading yur analysis, wickedrentq, and, if you don´t mind, I would like to fill in some gaps...

I don´t knowe much about Greek or Brechtian choirs (at least not enough to tell them apart), but the Ballad always reminded me of a street balladder, with a little pipe organ, like in the beginning of "Threepenny´s Opera", which I think is the suitable narrative for this humorously gruesome kind of story.

I love how in "No Place like London", Sweeney picks up Anthony´s theme in a different key to accommodate to his world view. The first appearance of the Beggar Woman is one of my favorite moments (Oh, the foreshadowing). I think it has been mentioned that the string quartet in the flashback during "Poor Thing" is the same melody that the Beggar Woman uses when she prostitutes herself (like the melody traumatized her and became engraved in her mind) - one of the hints to her true identity. Considering the obscenities she sings to that melody, it is also kind of a hint as to what is about to happen to her at the Judge´s party.

Have you noticed that the Beggar Woman´s "Alsm, Alms" cries are the same tune as used in the Epiphany for when Sweeney sings, for example "And my LU-CY lies in ASH-ES and I´ll NE-VER... etc". It subtly establishes a connection between the two characters. Exactly those notes are reprised the moment that Sweeney slits her throat. It is highlighted in the Final Scene: After Sweeney realizes who the Beggar Woman really is, her "Alms ALms"-theme and his "Lucy ashes"-theme actually merge into one another and are played simultaneously as they are reuinted - this always gives me the chills.

My Friends actually begin in a trance like state before the melody blooms into kind of a love theme. There is a very interesting video floating around somewhere of SOndheim teaching a musical tehatre student the song and expressing why he composed it the way he did. Very interesting, you should look it up.

There is actually more to "Green Finch than one might actually think, but I guess the main point is Johanna comparing herself to the Birds in their cages, a metaphor used throughout the song.

Pirelli´s songs are a pastiche of very operatic elements which work fine for such an over-the-top fake Eye-talian character.

I love how, on the Concert DVD, the Judge´s Johanna is placed after the murder of Pirelli. The transition from the chorus singing the word "hypocrites" to him on his knees is perfect. The song is very creepy but very important in terms of character developement as well, imo. Without it, the Judge is a little two-dimensional.

"Kiss Me" is one of my favorite parts of the show, mainly because Johanna and Anthony are such interesting characters (and because "We don´t have a gate" is one of the best lines ever^^). They are the only "good" persons in the whole play (even Toby gets drawn into the circle of violence in the end), yet they are the ultimate mockery, because we see that they are flawed as well. While Johanna is deeply troubled and probably depressed (she should seek professional help if you ask me - I mean, she kills Mr. Fogg, come on!), Anthony is so very naive that he doesn´t have a clue what´s actually going on in the world around him. You described them as "stereotypic melodramatic characters", which I find to be very in tune with the sudden outburst of over-the-top romanticism in their songs (the "love at first sight"-thing and the variation of Anthony´s theme accompanying it, the chorus of "Kiss Me"), which is obviously not meant to be taken seriously. She decides to marry him before even knowing his name, hello? Their relationship is pretty childish and shallow, consisting of melodramatic teenage emotions. Although their fate is left unclear, the show heavily implies that they don´t really have a future together. In the twisted world of Sweeney Todd, good has no chance to survive. I also love how in the end "Kiss Me" and "Ladies in their Sensitivities" come together. This whole score is so very energetic, plot- and character-driven - better than any movie soundtrack.

"Wait" is one of my least favorite songs in the show (which in Sweeney standards means it´s still great) but it´s very important to the plot. We have Sweeney´s brooding madness, expressed in the melody of "There´s a whole in the world..." used as underscoring, playing against Lovett´s soothing manipulation. She´s basically trying to prevent him from getting revenge too quickly so she can have him to herself a little longer. You never know, could be of good use. Most of what she does she does for herself. Of course, the "Wait" momentum raises the tension during "Pretty Women" and is, eventually, responsible for Sweeney´s descent into utter madness, therefore it is shortly reprised in "Epiphany".

Part of the tension of "Pretty Women" is that, although it´s a duet, they´re actually singing of very different things. Yet, they both have in common to be darkly obsessed with something. Sondheim loves to play with the irony of contrasting horror with pretty tunes a lot here, as rightfully stated before.

Well, "A Little Priest" being a waltz embraces the standards of established society, taking it to the extreme since everyone is caught up in their bizarre killing machinery. Mrs Lovett´s "with the price of meat what it is...", is her motif, which ocurred before in "Worst Pies in London" (which captures a woman at work beautifully with all the pace changes throughout) and reocurrs in "By the Sea" (the most classical Broadway type song, suiting it´s content. Lovett´s singing of dreams that were common among poor people at that time - I don´t know the correct term for that) .

In "God that´s Good", their sick vision is realized. This can also be heard in the music: The "Psst" "Excuse me" "Psst" "Dear, see to the customers..." parts are a scattered version of Sweeney´s "madness" theme - the spawn of his twisted mind is becoming a reality. His ode to the new chair is, of course, the same tune as Toby´s ode to the pies - anyone see a connection between the two^^?

You basically already said everything needed to be said about "Johanna", one of my favorite songs as well. Once again, a more complex song than one would think. It is very emotional and sad, but once again, Sondheim contrasts this with gore, which gives it a humorous edge - this song has it all^^ Sweeney´s lyrics are part self-deception, I would say, but I think that depends on the way the character is portrayed. He doesn´t seem as fine as he says he is, which is part of the theme that in the end, his lust for revenge got him nothing - on the contrary. It seems at if nothing, not even his bloodlust, is able to fulfill him anymore, once this song is over.

City on Fire is one of the most rhrilling moments in the show, all the reprises coming together here are so great. The lunatics seem to see the cty for what it is, yet mingle into the common crowd without a problem, it appears - averyone else is at least as crazy as them. Here, the music becomes very much like underscoring, reprising snippets from No Place like LOndon in some variations. Johanna and Anthony´s "love at first sight"-tune is also reprised, before we go back to the darker arrangement again, signifying danger.

While I´m at it, it´s true that Bernard Herrmann´s influence on the score hasn´t been mentioned yet, but unfortunately I can´t do that either, since the onyl thing I know of him is his score to "Psacho" and Sondheim stated something else as influence for Sweeney Todd (though also Psycho bears some resemblances, especially in creating moods and the use of strings throughout).

I´m a huge fan of the "Beggar Woman´s Lullabye", but I can see why it was cut, it makes the twist at the end a little too obvious. It is a beautiful piece of music nonetheless, reprising Poor Thing on a somewhat lighter note. I love how her last words are how her husband soon will be "home again" and that´s the moment when Sweeney enters and the music shifts to his menacing madness theme again, now spiraling out of control.

It is true, both Sweeney´s and Lovett´s demise are very in-character (he gets his throat slit by his friend and she is baked in the oven). Lovett reprises "Poor Thing" to Sweeney as she is "retelling her story" and as he realizes se has betrayed him, he gets her the only way he can - by singing their Waltz again. It is one of the few moments in the show where he actually pays attantion to her and acts with her, not just reacts, so it is very fitting for him to take action again here and sing this while waltzing her into the oven. SHe is well aware of what´s going to happen but shares a final triumphant moment with him. The closest she´ll ever get to what she wanted (thus the short "By the Sea" reprise). I never realized that Lovett´s manipulation paralells The Judge´s either, that was a very interesting point.

The final ballad sums the story up by also stating the moral. I like those alternate lines I read somewhere on here (forgot the exact words, something along the lines of "If you kill for love you don´t know you lose it" or something) but the lines "To seek revenge may lead to hell but everyone does it if seldom as well as Sweeney" actually is a great conclusion to the show, stating that we all tend to give in to our evil tendencies every now and then, but we must be aware of not getting consumed by them.

Keep this thread going, folks!

[into_the_woods2]

Posted: 6/10/08 at 2:24pm

love this thread...what insight!!!

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/19/23 at 6:47pm

17 years later...

(Hi!) I went to see the wonderful Sweeney Revival today.  Before going, I remembered I made this post all these years ago, and thought it might add to my enjoyment today to reread it.  What I forgot was how wonderful the discussion/commentary was from some amazing posters at the time.  And while I am loath to bump any post from my college-aged self (cringe), I decided that in light of the revival, it would be nice to bump this for some of the amazing responses I got.  Hope you all enjoy!

Updated On: 3/19/23 at 06:47 PM

[darquegk]

Posted: 3/19/23 at 7:06pm

Has Sondheim ever talked about why he wrote most of Mrs. Lovett’s music with midcentury Latin rhythms? I’m assuming it’s just as a subliminal way to set her apart from the rest of London, but I’m curious if those rhythms and song styles have greater meaning.

I wound up swiping that technique for my own show: in “The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari,” everyone in Old Town has classic Broadway sounds, but Caligari’s musical motifs are all Latin rhythms, since he describes himself as a cultured world traveler. (They’re all very conventional American approximations thereof, because his veneer of culture and world education is ultimately a lie.)

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/19/23 at 7:41pm

Apparently he did speak about disliking "Wait" for its Latin rhythm, and rewrote the accompaniment to eliminate that element when the National Theater staged a revival in 1993.

Updated On: 3/19/23 at 07:41 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 3/19/23 at 8:07pm

It has been nice re-visiting this thread. I am sure I read it when it first started but have read through it again. It was also nice to see a Margo post. Thanks for bringing it back!

[kdogg36]

Posted: 3/20/23 at 12:33pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Apparently he did speak about disliking "Wait" for its Latin rhythm, and rewrote the accompaniment to eliminate that element when the National Theater staged a revival in 1993."

Sondheim discusses it with interviewer Mark Horowitz in Sondheim on Music (pp. 150-152), pasted below.

------------------------------

MH: Among your manuscripts, I found a copy of a letter you wrote to Declan Donellan for a London production of Sweeney. You wrote, in part: "I'm working on an accompaniment to 'Wait' that will be a little less Sergio Mendez." [...]

SS: I always fall into South-American rhythms. I don't know why. In every show, and quite often, whether the songs are relevant or not. Here, I just thought: What are South-American rhythms doing in the middle of Victorian England? So I made something with less [sings rhythm]. Actually, there's an influence in "Wait"; the chord structure is influenced by a South-American lullaby - Montsalvatge's "Lullaby to a Negro Baby." I stole those chords from him, and first used those chords for "Don't Look at Me" in Follies. And then I used them here, and I'm afraid that the rhythmic idea crept in while I was asleep, while I wasn't noticing. It's always bothered me. This is the song that's the least satisfactory in Sweeney (and it's not because of me and Montsalvatge), it's because I wasn't able to find the proper expression of... again, you talk about lullabies; this is Mrs. Lovett trying to calm a completely berserk person. He's not younger, but it's a lullaby. It's: How do you calm somebody down who's having a hysterical fit? Well, the hysterical fit is he's jumping up every time the doorbell rings and grabbing his razor. And she doesn't want him going berserk waiting for this guy to come so he can kill him. It's not the right song; and if the movie goes ahead, I'm going to find something else for this. This will be on tape, and the movie will go ahead, and it'll be the same damn song; but... I would like to find something else. I would like to find a way of expressing it. This was another scene that I intended to rewrite. Maybe it should be a duet - maybe it's: He says something rash, and then she calms him down, then he says something rash. Of course, that's going to be the same rhythm as the "Epiphany," which is coming up - where it's rash and then calm, and then rash and then calm. Maybe I can make capital out of that - it didn't occur to me until just this minute. Maybe there's a way of echoing that - that the changes he goes through in the "Epiphany" are the changes that he goes through - that they go through - in this song. But something's got to be done. At any rate, this is an attempt to take out the South Americanness of it. Although, I notice I've still got the dotted rhythm in the bass. 

MH: If one does do this song, is this new accompaniment the one you'd prefer them using?

SS: I'd have to hear it again. Probably, but I don't know how I would do that now - with the score published the way it is. Also, this was reorchestrated for London; in this version, it's for a nine-piece band, so it's impractical.

Updated On: 3/20/23 at 12:33 PM