Anyone going to the first preview of FOLLIES? — Page 10

After Eight, I think if you really find Sondheim so nasty and upsetting, you should stick to Jerry Herman musicals (many of which are quite good). Why torture yourself any more?

Surely "You're Gonna Love Tomorrow"/"Love Will See Us Through" are heavy with irony, given everything that has gone before. But they are also beautiful songs with brilliantly adept lyrics. "Nasty jabs"? Seen Threepenny Opera lately?

" Seen Threepenny Opera lately?"

Not lately. But its social commentary is far more accomplished than the silly pettiness of You're Gonna Love Tomorrow.

And incidentally. I'm not in the slightest bit tortured by Follies. In fact, I like quite a bit of it. But that doesn't make me blind to its faults, which I'm offering for discussion here.

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Updated On: 8/22/11 at 05:40 PM

"After Eight, what is petty about "You're Gonna Love Tomorrow/Love'll See Us Through"? The lyrics are sunny and optimistic, the tunes are catchy and, to me, delightful. Whatever irony attaches to the number comes from the context of knowing where these characters will end.

Well, as you obviously know yourself, it's the very context of the song that makes a mockery of those words. What is petty and silly is to target cheery peaches and cream songs of long ago, that no one took to the letter in the first place. The cruel irony, here, though, is that songs like Life Is Just a Bowl of Cherries and On the Sunny Side of the Street are better than anything in Follies!

I will tell you I enjoy reading your posts. You're intelligent, articulate, and insightful. I'm glad you've joined this group. But try to be more accurate when summing up another person's opinion. I've used words like "mean spirited," "snarky," "nasty," and "petty," to describe this show. That's not the same as feeling "maliciously assaulted." I do not feel maliciously assaulted.. I feel irritated, for the reasons I've stated. I also like other elements of the show.

And one other thing. You've made several recommendations to me. Now I'll make another to you. Don't patronize or condescend to others. I have no need to stick to Jerry Herman musicals. (And don't be so condescending about those either.) I'll see whatever I please.

But for the record, I prefer Dolly, Mame, Milk and Honey, La Cage, and even
Dear World like 5,721 times more than anything Sondheim has written.

So cheers, and have a good evening.

Updated On: 8/22/11 at 06:17 PM

Ugh. Just look at that horrible filth.

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PalJoey, you are my hero! I've never seen video of the original cast doing that number expect for grainy long-shots. What a treat!

(I worked on a production of Show Boat where Harvey Evans and Virginia Sandifur stole the show as Frank and Ellie. Harvey, in particular, can do no wrong in my book. Well, except for singing sharp on the word "cards" in that video.)

^^^^

I know you're mostly joking and your post is very funny.

But I do want to thank After Eight and others willing to criticize Follies. I can't imagine anything more boring than a bunch of Sondheim devotees agreeing that every word and note of his shows is perfect.

And, yes, I've been to dinner parties like that.

"You keep insisting that sentimental love songs are unfair targets for irony because nobody took them seriously in the first place. And I keep wondering why you think such songs and themes have dominated comedies for millennia if nobody believes in them."

It's all about fancy, poetry, metaphor, the ideals that these songs embody. They embody an essential human need, that of beiing able to hope for some kind of happiness in this life, even though we know full well that life is not a bowl of cherries. One can not do without that hope for happiness, it's integral to the human condition. Yet, at the same time, even though no one thinks that life could be a bed of roses, it's appealing to hear songs that tell us the reverse, as one can enjoy the thought of how nice that would be, like the Beach Boys asking, "Wouldn't It Be Nice?"

Look, no one thinks that a stork drops a baby down the chimney, and yet, cards and wrapping paper for newborns continue to have that very image on them. Why? Now, if someone were to rail on about how false and riidiculous it is to proffer this sham, it would be as petty, ahd frankly, as stupid as what is being done in Follies.

After Eight, I don't think jokes about the stork bringing babies can be fairly compared to the prevalence of the "love conquers all" theme in Western culture. We've only discussed musical theater, but the magical power of love is an even more dominating theme in pop music, as you suggest, and film.

People may recognize that other people's relationships often sour, but that doesn't mean they recognize the same potential in their own marriages.

You're arguing for fairy tales (not a condescension, just a term we both understand) and I agree they have their place. I recognize the human need for hope and the occasional leap of faith.

But Sondheim and most of his collaborators have been more interested in what happens after that leap. I understand that their conclusions aren't what you want to hear in the theater, but personally I find their shows true and moving.

(FWIW, I've lived with the same great guy for almost 35 years. I'm not a cynic about marriage.)

Updated On: 8/22/11 at 09:23 PM

Whatever you say Ben. And doubletalk aside, the typos suggest that at the very least you've had a long day.

Updated On: 8/22/11 at 10:09 PM