#27
Posted: 1/4/11 at 7:35pm
in order of those i've seen live
Tyne
Bernadette
Betty
Patti (Mama might have been driven, but not driven to the nuthouse)
On CD
Lansbury
Tyne over all (the cd doesn't do her any favours)
Tyne
Bernadette
Betty
Patti (Mama might have been driven, but not driven to the nuthouse)
On CD
Lansbury
Tyne over all (the cd doesn't do her any favours)
And I Am Always So Vitriolic
Updated On: 1/4/11 at 07:35 PM
#28
Posted: 1/4/11 at 7:36pm
Goth misspelled "vulva"!!!
Never having been in contact with one, I sometimes misspell vagina.
Could be a similar circumstance.
Anyway...
After re-reading my post. I realized there is a distinction between "most important" and "Best."
I understand best is subjective (though I still put Merman in that category for for reasons already mentioned). But there is no denying she is the most important, also for the reasons mentioned.
I think the second most important Rose is Angela Lansbury, because she proved the role could be played outside of the Merman mold. She opened the doors for all others.
My personal favorite is still Daly, who gave one of best performances I'm ever seen.
Never having been in contact with one, I sometimes misspell vagina.
Could be a similar circumstance.
Anyway...
After re-reading my post. I realized there is a distinction between "most important" and "Best."
I understand best is subjective (though I still put Merman in that category for for reasons already mentioned). But there is no denying she is the most important, also for the reasons mentioned.
I think the second most important Rose is Angela Lansbury, because she proved the role could be played outside of the Merman mold. She opened the doors for all others.
My personal favorite is still Daly, who gave one of best performances I'm ever seen.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt
Updated On: 1/4/11 at 07:36 PM
#29
Posted: 1/4/11 at 7:40pm
Patti was a revelation in this role. Her production is definitive, in my opinion, and that's more than the fanboy in me talking.
#30
Posted: 1/4/11 at 7:55pm
Joey., what was the specific revelation(s) in LuPone's performance that wasn't/weren't in any other? And what made this production "definitive" as opposed to the other Robbins, (two other)Laurents and Mendes productions?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I want to know what I may have missed when I saw it in 2008.
I've seen many GYSPYs and as has been stated before "A rose is a rose is a rose."
I think the role is like the great opera roles, Blanche Dubois or Hamlet. We all know the character so well, discovering something completely new is unlikely. Too specific choices like Buckley's "angry" or Peter's "sexy" are closer to being one-note than being revelations.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I want to know what I may have missed when I saw it in 2008.
I've seen many GYSPYs and as has been stated before "A rose is a rose is a rose."
I think the role is like the great opera roles, Blanche Dubois or Hamlet. We all know the character so well, discovering something completely new is unlikely. Too specific choices like Buckley's "angry" or Peter's "sexy" are closer to being one-note than being revelations.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt
Updated On: 1/4/11 at 07:55 PM
#31
Posted: 1/4/11 at 8:13pm
bryan2: When you say Merman cant act and basically was the same character her entire career, is that based on seeing Merman or are you just hazarding a guess based on the original cast album and legends you've heard?
Or did you just make that up?
Or did you just make that up?
#32
Posted: 1/4/11 at 8:28pm
I liked that one lady the best.
"The sexual energy between the mother and son really concerns me!"-random woman behind me at Next to Normal
"I want to meet him after and bang him!"-random woman who exposed her breasts at Rock of Ages, referring to James Carpinello
#35
Posted: 1/4/11 at 8:53pm
I think Suzanne Somers as Mama Rose at the Las Vegas Hilton's GYPSY would be a revelation.
"The sexual energy between the mother and son really concerns me!"-random woman behind me at Next to Normal
"I want to meet him after and bang him!"-random woman who exposed her breasts at Rock of Ages, referring to James Carpinello
#36
Posted: 1/4/11 at 9:00pm
PJ, he might be making that judgment based on (in addition to recordings and clips) the statements of at least two of the creators of "Gypsy."
He may be wrong, but he ain't making it up.
He may be wrong, but he ain't making it up.
Updated On: 1/4/11 at 09:00 PM
#37
Posted: 1/4/11 at 9:07pm
Sondheim was been less harsh on Merman over the years from "singing dog" to "can act"(within limits) to "perfect."
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt
#38
Posted: 1/4/11 at 9:24pm
I greatly preferred Patti's performance at Ravinia, under the direction of Lonny Price, far more than her performance on Broadway.
#39
Posted: 1/4/11 at 10:06pm
The "singing dog" comment was a funny crack Sondheim made among friends, which was quoted out of context by Arthur Laurents in Original Story By, his first of two unreadable revenge memoirs.
It's one of those things Arthur is brilliant at: making his friends seem like absolute SH*Ts.
Now Sondheim is stuck with the legacy of having been derisive about Merman, when in reality, his attitude was always more bemusement and appreciation and wonder at how someone who eschewed the principles of good acting and good siningg could have been so powerful in the role.
I bet he wishes he never made that quip.
It's one of those things Arthur is brilliant at: making his friends seem like absolute SH*Ts.
Now Sondheim is stuck with the legacy of having been derisive about Merman, when in reality, his attitude was always more bemusement and appreciation and wonder at how someone who eschewed the principles of good acting and good siningg could have been so powerful in the role.
I bet he wishes he never made that quip.
#40
Posted: 1/4/11 at 11:18pm
Sondheim on Merman (pages 66-67 of Finishing the Hat:
"The problem was that Ethel had been brought up in the farce musicals as a low comedienne (an expert one, I hasten to add) and had never been tested as an actress. We had no reason to believe she could do anything but bray her way through the show....Ethel turned out to be a better actress than we'd anticipated, limited in range but capable of shadings and variety and with, of course, impeccable timing. She was able to tap into the reserve of anger that fuels every comedian, high or low."
"The problem was that Ethel had been brought up in the farce musicals as a low comedienne (an expert one, I hasten to add) and had never been tested as an actress. We had no reason to believe she could do anything but bray her way through the show....Ethel turned out to be a better actress than we'd anticipated, limited in range but capable of shadings and variety and with, of course, impeccable timing. She was able to tap into the reserve of anger that fuels every comedian, high or low."
Updated On: 1/5/11 at 11:18 PM
#41
Posted: 1/4/11 at 11:26pm
I'm dying to know which of Arthur's GYPSY productions Sondheim found "cartoonish/contrived?" I think the 2008 revival was anything but cartoonish.
#42
Posted: 1/4/11 at 11:41pm
I know. I gasped out loud when I read that, knowing that Arthur was calling up all their mutual friends and screaming that Steve had, yet again, said something "unforgivable" about him, after which there could be no reconciliation, ever again!
It has to be the Angela production, the Tyne production or the Patti.
I have a feeling it was the Patti. My guess is that, like AEA AGMA SM (and me), Sondheim would have preferred Patti's Ravinia performance, as directed by Lonny Price, to the Broadway performance, as directed by Arthur.
But I'm sure we'll never know. I was surprised he said as much as "contrived" and "cartoonish."
It has to be the Angela production, the Tyne production or the Patti.
I have a feeling it was the Patti. My guess is that, like AEA AGMA SM (and me), Sondheim would have preferred Patti's Ravinia performance, as directed by Lonny Price, to the Broadway performance, as directed by Arthur.
But I'm sure we'll never know. I was surprised he said as much as "contrived" and "cartoonish."
#43
Posted: 1/4/11 at 11:48pm
Interesting! I recall you seeing the Ravinia production. What did you prefer about Patti's direction there?
I only saw Patti at Encores! and on Broadway. Her transformation between the two was honestly stunning.
I remember Sondheim being somewhat involved with the 2008 production. He was there on opening and closing nights. And isn't that the production where Sondheim offered Arthur some advice, and Arthur flipped out? :-p
I only saw Patti at Encores! and on Broadway. Her transformation between the two was honestly stunning.
I remember Sondheim being somewhat involved with the 2008 production. He was there on opening and closing nights. And isn't that the production where Sondheim offered Arthur some advice, and Arthur flipped out? :-p
#44
Posted: 1/5/11 at 8:18am
I'm assuming liked Patti better at Encores--no?
There was something raw and vulnerable and surprising about Patti's Rose at Ravinia. Part of it was just the simple Ravinia staging. Part of it was that over the years, Lonny has been able to get inside Patti's head while directing her. Part of it was that she was just discovering the role.
Plus there was the factor that she was still under the threat of Arthur's ban--real or invented by gossips--that she would "never play the part in New York." So she gave an unstudied, unpracticed, instinctual Rose.
By the time Arthur had directed her, he had made her more self-conscious and inserted some of his melodramatic touches. Arthur loves to make women bitchy and yell at each other when he directs them.
By the time the show came to Broadway, Arthur had turned Leigh Ann Larkin's June into a female version of Chucky the evil marionette from the horror movies. And he had turned the big confrontation scene between Louise and Rose into some old Bette Davis/Joan Crawford screamer.
Bitchy women are what Arthur lives for.
Yes, Steve's "notes" in 2008 (which were probably dead on) occasioned another of Arthur's petulant "Steve said something unforgivable to me!" reactions. Arthur has always been able to dish it out but not take it.
So what could he have meant by "contrived" and "cartoonish"...maybe the puppet version of Chowsie?
There was something raw and vulnerable and surprising about Patti's Rose at Ravinia. Part of it was just the simple Ravinia staging. Part of it was that over the years, Lonny has been able to get inside Patti's head while directing her. Part of it was that she was just discovering the role.
Plus there was the factor that she was still under the threat of Arthur's ban--real or invented by gossips--that she would "never play the part in New York." So she gave an unstudied, unpracticed, instinctual Rose.
By the time Arthur had directed her, he had made her more self-conscious and inserted some of his melodramatic touches. Arthur loves to make women bitchy and yell at each other when he directs them.
By the time the show came to Broadway, Arthur had turned Leigh Ann Larkin's June into a female version of Chucky the evil marionette from the horror movies. And he had turned the big confrontation scene between Louise and Rose into some old Bette Davis/Joan Crawford screamer.
Bitchy women are what Arthur lives for.
Yes, Steve's "notes" in 2008 (which were probably dead on) occasioned another of Arthur's petulant "Steve said something unforgivable to me!" reactions. Arthur has always been able to dish it out but not take it.
So what could he have meant by "contrived" and "cartoonish"...maybe the puppet version of Chowsie?
#46
Posted: 1/5/11 at 9:25am
Taz, that cracked me up.
For my taste, the best was only hinted at in THE FISHER KING - but it was enough to eclipse what I previously thought possible in the role. I give you . . .
Michael Jeter.
For my taste, the best was only hinted at in THE FISHER KING - but it was enough to eclipse what I previously thought possible in the role. I give you . . .
Michael Jeter.
#48
Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:26am
As long as we're going down this road, don't forget the stupendous Googie Gomez.
"I had a dring . . ."
"I had a dring . . ."
#50
Posted: 1/5/11 at 12:58pm
I'm assuming liked Patti better at Encores--no?
Thank you for you post. It makes a lot of sense. I did much prefer the production on Broadway. And if you're asking me, I preferred Patti on Broadway. You could tell she hadn't really found Rose yet at Encores. And that wig (some claimed it was her real hair) was hideous. I agreed with Brantley's Broadway "eating my hat" review. While I preferred Patti on Broadway, I still thought the stuffed dog and lamb was a bit ridiculous. And the sets could have been improved. Thankfully they beautifully altered many of the costumes. And I agree, they did go a little far with Larkin's June on Broadway.
Thank you for you post. It makes a lot of sense. I did much prefer the production on Broadway. And if you're asking me, I preferred Patti on Broadway. You could tell she hadn't really found Rose yet at Encores. And that wig (some claimed it was her real hair) was hideous. I agreed with Brantley's Broadway "eating my hat" review. While I preferred Patti on Broadway, I still thought the stuffed dog and lamb was a bit ridiculous. And the sets could have been improved. Thankfully they beautifully altered many of the costumes. And I agree, they did go a little far with Larkin's June on Broadway.
Updated On: 1/5/11 at 12:58 PM
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