Composers and shows and their contributions

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 4:48pm

Hi,

For a class we have to put together a presentation on pretty much anything we want relating to theatre, and I really want to do the evolution of Musical Theatre as a form and where it is heading now. I was wondering what shows and composers you guys feel were imperetive to the development of the artform (Whether you LIKE them or not, is a different story), as well as including the specific contributions. So far I know I definitely want to go into The Black Crook, Show Boat, Oklahoma, Hair...but i would love to hear what you guys, as theatre afficiados think. Maybe you feel a more obscure show or composer had a big impact, that people have ignored. This would be a big help into guiding me where to put my research efforts into.

Also any information about famous mentorings I know Rogers mentored Sondheimm who in turn mentored Larson, LaChuisa, Guettel (any others?). Also did Jason Robert Brown have a mentor? Andrew Lippa was mentored by Stephen Schwartz...etc.

And I guess my last question is who you consider to be the new(ish)composers that will take the artform in new directions and play a role of its evolution.

Again I am not asking you to do my homework for me, just help me a little to decide where I should focus my research. If you don't want to take part that's fine. I do think it will make for an interesting discussion either way.

Thanks,

Akiva

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 5:02pm

Hammerstein mentored Sondheim not Rodgers.

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 5:08pm

Right, sorry...I think I got confused because of Rogers being Guettel's grandfather. Reading the stuff about Sondheim's mentorship with Hammerstien on sondheim.com is pretty interesting stuff.

Akiva

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 5:11pm

If you look into the widely publicized story, which is pretty interesting, Hammerstein basically took Sondheim under his wing as a surrogate father when the two families lived next to one another. Sondheim says he looked up to Oscar so much that he would have followed him into whatever it is Hammerstein chose to do. Sondheim came to the theater and music pretty much on his own, I believe, and wrote a musical play for school. His classmates thought it was terrific so he brought it to Hammerstein, convinced it was the next big Broadway hit, and asked him to tell him honestly what he thought. Hammerstein kept it for a night and returned it to Sondheim covered in red correction marks, telling him it was awful. But then he proceeded to tell him why, and in that afternoon the granddaddy of musical theater educated the then baby of musical theater in all its glorious ways. Hammerstein even made him a course, which Sondheim dutifully followed.

I don't think there has ever been a relationship in musical theater quite like the one between Hammerstein and Sondheim though. Since then they've kind of turned it into a formula.

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 5:15pm

Hammerstein gave Sondheim three sort of excersizes to complete, and those were pretty much Sondheim's first three musicals. I would love to hear those someday.

Question for you Sondheim fans especially: What do you think were Sondhiem's biggest contributions to the artform?

Akiva

[Mother's Younger Brother]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:01pm

George M. Cohan practically invented what we know as "Broadway." There's a wondeful biography of him out there called "The Man Who Owned Broadway," and of course the film "Yankee Doodle Dandee." The film is highly fictionalized, but it's pretty accurate when it comes to paying tribute to his contributions and accomplishments. Look him up. :)

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:02pm

LaChiusa is self taught, though he has some obvious...inspirations.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50B1FF63D550C768CDDAA0894DE404482

[Ourtime992]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:07pm

Not another composer, but Hal Prince did a heck of a lot of tutoring and teaching with Jason Robert Brown, as JRB loves to mention, constantly.

I think that Sondheim's most important contribution(s) were the 1-2-3 punch of Company, Follies, and A Little Night Music, but if I were to point to a singular inovation in musical theater, Company would probably be it.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:12pm

I believe Sondheim's major contribution to Broadway was to de-romanticize the American musical. Along with Hal Prince, he envisioned the musical as an art form; he did not want to make the audience comfortable, he wasn't the first, but he is the most prominent composer to establish Postmodernism on Broadway. He deconstructs the material, the plot, the music; he created characters that were human, he didn't romanticize figures like the "ingenue" or the "hero." He spoke about problems and didn't give answers. He created a sort of theater that inspired the minds, not always the heart. His songs are often described as a one-act play, they always have a purpose; he didn't write hit songs, he was one of the first composers to write for his characters and he doesn't believe in reprises.

[Mother's Younger Brother]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:24pm

"Doesn't believe in reprises?" Come on. He may not call them "reprises," but he certainly uses them -- that is, he repeats key melodies with different arrangements and different sets of lyrics. If that's not a reprise, I don't know what is.

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:26pm

Because the three hundred million times they sing Johanna aren't reprises....

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:29pm

Oh another thing I majorly need help with is choreographers. I really am not that much of a dance-minded person, so I really can't articulate what exactly Fosse's innovations were (strong poses and subtle movements? I dunno).

And BSo thanks for that article.

Akiva

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:29pm

I believe there is a difference though. What Sondheim does is he uses certain motifs and certain music to define a character or a situation that he brings out sometimes in the middle of a song, sometime in a musical scene, but it's not a reprise like the ones you will find in a Rogers & Hammerstein show, where the hit song is usually reprised so people get used to the music. Actually, Sondheim said that Rodgers wanted to reprise a certain song in "Do I Hear A Waltz?" and when Sondheim asked why, Rodgers replied something like "Because I want people to hear the song again." And of course Sondheim very much disapproves.
Updated On: 3/13/06 at 06:29 PM

[Mother's Younger Brother]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:32pm

I understand what you're saying, but the two composers are merely using the reprises differently...but they're both still reprises.
Updated On: 3/13/06 at 06:32 PM

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:41pm

I agree, I just find the word "reprise" to be more about the Rodgers & Hammerstein "reprise."
The four choreographers you must talk about are: Agnes De Mille, Jerome Robbins, Michael Bennett, and Bob Fosse.
Agnes de Mille is in my opinion the most important out of the four. She choreographed Oklahoma! and was the first person to use choreography to advance the plot and reveal character issues.
I'm sure Margo will be able to tell you more about Michael Bennett's great influence in musical theater. I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact he had flawless transitions and he also had what I think was an almost cinematic vision. My older friends tell me he created close-ups in A Chorus Line. Also, he had very innovative ideas, such as the ones he employed in choreographing Follies or in creating Donna McKechnie's showstopper "Tick-Tock" dance in Company.
Fosse was just an isolationist, he created a language through his choreography that became as important to the piece as the music or the book or anything else. He was a cynical director and showed that on his work.
Try to read more about those four choreographers, they are extremely important to musical theater.

[Mother's Younger Brother]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 6:48pm

:) Couldn't agree more on your selection of choreographers!

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 7:49pm

FBD,

Thanks for that list. Those are definitely the ones that I have been researching, and your descriptions were very useful.

Akiva

[jo]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 7:58pm

You may want to include some mention of the through-composed musicals by the likes of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Boublil/Schonberg. Their musicals ( Phantom, Cats, Les Mis and Miss Saigon) are/were some of the longest-running musicals on Broadway and undoubtedly had some influence on the direction of musical theatre as well.

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 8:03pm

Hah....oh I have already planned my bits about the Brit Invasion and the Jukeboxers.

Akiva

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 8:08pm

I have nothing to add, but just want to thank you all for the discourse on this thread. It is, unfortunately, rather rare to see intellectual analysis of the musical theater art form on this message board. You've all contributed some great information.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 8:08pm

Oh bash those bastards in your paper, please!
I forgot to mention Gower Champion in the list of important choreographers, he is responsible for shows like Hello,Dolly!, Bye Bye Birdie, and 42nd street. He happened to be a brilliant choreographer, David Merick infamously announced his death after the curtain fell on the opening night performance of 42nd street, and it was considered one of the greatest losses for the theater.
EDIT: Don't forget to talk about Showboat and Pal Joey as important predecessors to the Rodgers & Hammerstein legacy. Updated On: 3/13/06 at 08:08 PM

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 8:10pm

Hah..and Merrick is a character in his own right. Reading about the creation of Destry Rides Again is hilarious.

Akiva

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 10:34pm

Any other thoughts on what current composers are important? BSo, why do you consider LaChiusa so good at what he does?

Akiva

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 11:00pm

"Also any information about famous mentorings I know Rogers mentored Sondheimm who in turn mentored Larson, LaChuisa, Guettel (any others?). Also did Jason Robert Brown have a mentor? Andrew Lippa was mentored by Stephen Schwartz...etc."

Why would these be considered 'famous?' Other than the unfortunate turn of events for Larson and its subsequent effect on RENT's reception, none of the others have blazed a trail of any substantial merit to give serious consideration to their
'influences.' Who cares if Lippa was mentored by Schwartz, for heaven's sake? He's just another writer without a track record and there are hundreds of them in NYC.

"I believe Sondheim's major contribution to Broadway was to de-romanticize the American musical. Along with Hal Prince, he envisioned the musical as an art form; he did not want to make the audience comfortable, he wasn't the first, but he is the most prominent composer to establish Postmodernism on Broadway. He deconstructs the material, the plot, the music; he created characters that were human, he didn't romanticize figures like the "ingenue" or the "hero." He spoke about problems and didn't give answers. He created a sort of theater that inspired the minds, not always the heart. His songs are often described as a one-act play, they always have a purpose; he didn't write hit songs, he was one of the first composers to write for his characters and he doesn't believe in reprises."

Except in the end, Sondheim turns out to be THE most romantic of writers--the ennui, the death-haunted yearning right out of Wagner, the angst, the vision of the tortured artist--Sondheim would not have been out of place in the fin-de-siecle of the 19th century. And for the record, Sondheim didn't create characters, his librettists did, and he was only one of many writers to "write for characters." Loesser, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Loewe all were dramatists and storytellers who wrote integrated musicals and fashioned songs for their characters in universal-specific terms.


Melinda Tentrees
Brighton, England

[jam_man]

Posted: 3/13/06 at 11:16pm

No, Sondheim wasn't the first to write songs for characters, but he was the first to do it so specifically. Sondheim has always joked that he doesn't want to write any songs until the show is completely cast and in rehearsals. That way he not only can tailor the song to the character, but to the direction and the actor's take on the character, as well as his/her strengths and weaknesses. And by making them so specific to the character and the performance, it captures an emotion or feeling or something that we all can relate to, thereby making it universal. Shakespeare wrote the same way - he wrote Hamlet for one specific actor in his company, but thousands of men have played in since.