Cultural Appropriation/Whitewashing- Page 2

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 12:42am

Not going to waste my time with a comment- believe what you like- and enjoy life.

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 12:42 AM

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 1:04am

I mean, I can see both sides, and I think the book of The Wiz would be VERY offensive with white people saying it as it's very "hokey," and just wouldn't be right, but there's nothing in the show that says it has to be a black person. If we were seeing an all-Puerto Rican version of The Wiz no one would say a thing, so I don't see a problem with a mixed company, but I think some of those lines should probably get a retooling. 

I don't understand why, in this day and age, actors just can't act. I've seen so many Hunchbacks where Quasimodo is now played by a deaf actor. I can understand the idea, but I just feel like it's becoming "if you haven't lived that life, you can't play that part." And I hate that. 

[uncageg]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 1:52am

BWAY Baby2, I am assuming you were not black in the 70's. If I am correct, find a time machine, go back as a black person, see THE WIZ while there and then get back to us.

You have no clue how this show impacted the black community. And made a recording star of Ms. Mills in our community.

Scotty hit the nail on the head. I saw the original production on Broadway 3 times.

The show was billed as the "Super Soul Musical" .It had an all black cast. Change that and it is no longer THE WIZ. 

ALSO....I feel the difference between THE WIZ and DOLLY is the score. THE WIZ's score is specific to the black community. Can white actors sing it. Yup. But not with as much soul as the show calls for and is intended to have. Also some of the dialoug would not play as well with white actors.

For regional schools to do it, fine. I think it is great that a predominantly white school likes it enough to do. To me it means it has reached beyond the black community and theatre is for all to enjoy. But for a professional revival, they should stay with the way it was originally cast  And not changed because white people found Harlem! JMO

 

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 01:52 AM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 3:17am

I can see your point- but I still do not agree with it. I loved seeing Denzel in Iceman- and what could be more white bread than Hello, Dolly?- yet that has had success with an all-black cast.   I gave my  point of view- and others gave their points of view. We do not have to agree. If there are white people in a production of The Wiz and you do not think that is appropriate- do not buy tickets to it. I know people who thought Harvey Fierstein and Rosie O'Donnell in Fiddler On The Roof a few season back felt that way about the casting- finding it very inappropriate and disrespectful- I thought it was novel and creative casting. Whatever. For me, though, I find very few casting choices objectionable- though I can say that seeing a severely handicapped Laura in Glass Menagerie a few seasons back with Sally Field starring- was not good casting because it did distort what I saw as crucial plot points. . Can't think of any other casting choices that I disagreed with off hand. I would never want to see a white MLK- a black George Wallace- that would be ridiculous- but I personally am open to diversity in most casting - and I do not see The Wiz as being a special case. I do think, however, that a play like Raisin In The Sun cannot be played without black people- and casting gay guys in Boys In The Band was great casting.

 

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 03:17 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 4:51am

JBC3 said: "A commitment to diversity and inclusion generally is aimed at correcting systemic exclusion 
"

By applying systemic exclusion in return?

Because you feel you have the right now?

Get out of here. People like you and the op are the cause of not achieving equality.

POC are not underrepresented in theatre at this moment, in fact overrepresented if you look at the percentages. There is no need for your color counting, exclusion attitude in this situation anymore at all.

Do you, or do you not want systemic exclusion? And don't give me a 2 faced answer, because you think some people deserve it and others don't.

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 04:51 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 5:07am

RippedMan said: "I mean, I can see both sides, and I think the book of The Wiz would be VERY offensive with white people saying it as it's very "hokey," and just wouldn't be right, but there's nothing in the show that says it has to be a black person. If we were seeing an all-Puerto Rican version of The Wiz no one would say a thing, so I don't see a problem with a mixed company, but I think some of those lines should probably get a retooling.

I don't understand why, in this day and age, actors just can't act. I've seen so many Hunchbacks where Quasimodo is now played by a deaf actor. I can understand the idea, but I just feel like it's becoming "if you haven't lived that life, you can't play that part." And I hate that."

We need to get rid of the double standards that maintain racial separation. "Oh, this starbucks drink is such a white sorority girl drink" is ok? And "Oh, fried chicken is such a black girl snack" is not ok?

We need to stop being 2 faced and place one race above another by persistently putting 1 in a victim role.

And I agree, "only play something if you have experienced it" is not right for acting, so let's not go down that road. I understand that if the story asks for it, like Dreamgirls, you have to cast authentically, but the Wiz has neutral characters, and a production of the Wiz in 2018 is not the same as a producton of the Wiz in the 70's. I would assume people in the theatre world would embrace diversity now instead of staying in the exclusion victim role of the 70's. That's not progress.

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 05:07 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 5:18am

If any project of at least 5 people is cast nowadays, there is at least 1 black person in it. And I have absolutely no problem with that. Great that black people are clearly so much more talented that they win a higher percentage of roles compared to white people. Because this must be the case if 100 people audition for 5 roles and we apply actual population statistics.

Clearly you are a person that calls notable changes in casting choices "washing". 

So would you call this "blackwashing"?  Or could we just agree to call it "casting people".

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 05:18 AM

[devonian.t]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 5:29am

I feel the difference between THE WIZ and DOLLY is the score. THE WIZ's score is specific to the black community. Can white actors sing it. Yup. But not with as much soul as the show calls for and is intended to have.

Isn't it racist to make generalized statements based on ethnicity?  

Two wrongs never make a right. Inequality of opportunity can never be justified.

[JBC3]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 5:33am

Dave28282 said: "JBC3 said: "A commitment to diversity and inclusion generally is aimed at correcting systemic exclusion
"

By applying systemic exclusion in return?

Because you feel you have the right now?

Get out of here. People like you and the op are the cause of not achieving equality.

POC are not underrepresented in theatre at this moment, in fact overrepresented if you look at the percentages. There is no need for your color counting, exclusion attitude in this situation anymore at all.

Do you, or do you not want systemic exclusion? And don't give me a 2 faced answer, because you think some people deserve it and others don't."

Aw and you praised my take on a different thread.

I have worked on diversity and org dev issues for 20+ years and your simplistic views and inability to understand privilege are so tired.

Go bother someone else with them. Blocked. Updated On: 6/17/18 at 05:33 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 7:30am

Could be, my standpoint is always the same. Equality. 

You just have a wrong view in this one, in my opinion.

I am the one who understands privilege. You do not. Demanding privilege has always been the problem, which you don't seem to grasp. No matter how much you feel you have the right to demand privilege over others in return now, it's wrong. 

Blocking and running away doesn't solve anything either. 

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 07:30 AM

[CedricOates]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 9:16am

eOpera89 said: "[While the “The Wiz” has traditionally been performed with an all-black cast, Speer said she hopes to make her rendition a multi-cultural experience, bringing in actors from a wide array of backgrounds.]
 

Just a genuine question. It does say a “multi-cultural experience”. Doesn’t that mean there can be asians, latinos, white, black, Caribbean etc. I didn’t see it say that they were now going to put white people specifically now. Am I missing something, or did they further on say that they will cast a bunch of white people now?

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 9:30am

Great point. 

Demanding "all black" or "all 1 race" are disgustingly outdated terms that do not fit society anymore.

 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 10:40am

CedricOates said: "eOpera89 said: "[While the “The Wiz” has traditionally been performed with an all-black cast, Speer said she hopes to make her rendition a multi-cultural experience, bringing in actors from a wide array of backgrounds.]


Just a genuine question. It does say a “multi-cultural experience”. Doesn’t that mean there can be asians, latinos, white, black, Caribbean etc. I didn’t see it say that they were now going to put white people specifically now. Am I missing something, or did they further on say that they will cast a bunch of white people now?

"

Like a lot of things, what’s going to happen is that they say they will open it up for more diversity but most likely most of the roles will go to white people which will make a lot of the posters in this thread very happy. I find some posts here to be hilarious. The false honorable intentions expressed are hilarious especially from one poster. He wouldn’t bat an eye at countless new productions that are all-white but once another production is mostly or all-black, sure enough he has to come in. In fact I only ever see him post to talk about uppity blacks overstepping their boundaries and taking too much space. I never see any other posts from this person nor do I ever see him ever talk about theater other than to complain about black people in various ways and either using pretenses to do so or just being blatant.

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 10:40 AM

[CedricOates]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 10:48am

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "CedricOates said: "eOpera89 said: "[While the “The Wiz” has traditionally been performed with an all-black cast, Speer said she hopes to make her rendition a multi-cultural experience, bringing in actors from a wide array of backgrounds.]


Just a genuine question. It does say a “multi-cultural experience”. Doesn’t that mean there can be asians, latinos, white, black, Caribbean etc. I didn’t see it say that they were now going to put white people specifically now. Am I missing something, or did they further on say that they will cast a bunch of white people now?

"

Like a lot of things, what’s going to happen is that they say they will open it up for more diversity but most likely most the roles will go to white people which will make a lot of the posters in this thread very happy."

I mean that’s just assuming my friend. But i totally see your point, as it has likely happened before. A sad world we live in. We need more love in this community. Confucius said, “ Under the heavens there is but one family”. Much love everyone. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 11:25am

We are all on just about the same page. With all of the horrible things going on right now- at the border- in the White House- the best thing we can do is be as good as we can be- to each other and our selves- and fight for justice and equality the way we each see it. If one sees it a bit different than another person- that is the way it is- we are all on different paths with different experiences- but at least we all here seem to want to see justice and equality and true diversity- I think everyone here has something valid to say- and no one seems to be in favor of racist hate or division. Thank God for that.

[astromiami]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 12:10pm

CedricOates said: "eOpera89 said: "[While the “The Wiz” has traditionally been performed with an all-black cast, Speer said she hopes to make her rendition a multi-cultural experience, bringing in actors from a wide array of backgrounds.]


Just a genuine question. It does say a “multi-cultural experience”. Doesn’t that mean there can be asians, latinos, white, black, Caribbean etc. I didn’t see it say that they were now going to put white people specifically now. Am I missing something, or did they further on say that they will cast a bunch of white people now?

"

As OP said, the cast (for the leads at least) are now mostly white.

Their facebook page until recently was only of white people involved in the production. If you look, yesterday, after this thread, they started adding pictures of black performers.

This is just the sad thing we see now where "diversity" is a marketing tool for productions that are not really diverse.

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 12:17pm

Dave28282 said: "experienced it" is not right for acting, so let's not go down that road. I understand that if the story asks for it, like Dreamgirls, you have to cast authentically, but the Wiz has neutral characters, and a production of the Wiz in 2018 is not the same as a producton of the Wiz in the 70's. I would assume people in the theatre world would embrace diversity now instead of staying in the exclusionvictim role of the 70's. That's not progress."

The thing is, the characters of The Wiz are not race-neutral. They're intentionally coded as African-American tropes, often as broad stock characters that co-opt stereotypes, similar to how black people took up the n-word as a word to use among themselves. The original Wizard of Oz is probably more race-neutral than The Wiz. As with Hamilton, ethnicity isn't explicitly addressed in the script, but it was deeply important to the way these characters are written: the way they speak, sing, move, etc.

FWIW, I'm South Asian-American. While I'd love to have performed in The Wiz because I love the music, I know it's a product of a specific moment in African-American culture and, as such, it would completely rob the show of one of its main arguments for existing: it was an expression of black pride in the period right after the Civil Rights movement and 1960s counterculture, at a time when black culture was still relegated away from the mainstream of American culture or reinterpreted by white performers, after years of things like minstrelsy and blackface, etc. That's important to The Wiz. It's not just another adaptation of L. Frank Baum's story, just as Hamilton is not just an adaptation of Chernow's biography.

As for whether modern productions should be beholden to the history of the show... that's a subjective judgment call. Personally, I think this show is so deeply steeped in its time and too much a product of a particular cultural moment that I don't think it works as a 21st century "multi-cultural" work without completely gutting it of its identity. Updated On: 6/17/18 at 12:17 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 12:46pm

OK- if that is true of The Wiz- then how do you feel about no diversity in Fiddler On the Roof? No diversity in a cast of Funny Girl? No diversity in Oklahoma revivals? 

Well, that is not okay with me- and it is not okay to not have diversity in a 2018 cast of The Wiz. We agree to disagree

Updated On: 6/17/18 at 12:46 PM

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 1:03pm

BWAY Baby 2, you should probably be aware that the reason people respond negatively to your posts is because you have a habit of extrapolating bizarre conclusions from people's posts, putting words in people's mouths. It is not a nice experience to have your words stretched to the most extreme interpretation, and then have that straw man attacked as if it were actually what you're saying. In logic, this is known as argumentum/reductio ad absurdum. It gets tiring having to clarify one's words when the original post should be perfectly clear to any person of reasonable intelligence engaging in good faith.

I'll tl;dr my main point for you: I'm not saying The Wiz should never be performed by non-black people. I'm saying that it doesn't work well. If you can have a non-black actor pulling off lines like the following without being cringeworthy, I salute you:

SCARECROW:
An' that's the truth!

TINMAN:
God's honest truth!

SCARECROW:
Cross your heart!

TINMAN:
No...I can't do that.

SCARECROW:
I knew it. You was jivin' us all along. C'mon, Dorothy.

---

TINMAN:
Yeah. I thought so. So I went to this here Tinsmith I knew, and I said:
"Hey, man...do you think you could fix me up with a tin leg?" Well, he did. And the next day I'm back choppin',
doin' my thing, and damn, if that old axe don't slip...and cut off my right leg! So I go back to the tinsmith and get me another leg.

---

LION:
Little Momma, she got me feelin' like Gunga Din. Child, you know that lady is so afraid of water, she don't even take a bath? Updated On: 6/17/18 at 01:03 PM

[sabrelady]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 1:04pm

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/263933/cultural-appropriation

 

Of course it was written by a Yid- that may devalue it for some.

 

is this cultural appropriation? Should my tribe protest?

[CedricOates]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 2:55pm

when non latinos, including african Americans, portray the principals in “In The Heights” excluding Benny. Is this then cultural appropriation?

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 3:03pm

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "He wouldn’t bat an eye at countless new productions that are all-white but once another production is mostly or all-black, sure enough he has to come in."

This is where you are wrong. Neither white nor black people have to be in everything. That is not what I complain about. I find people who do think so racist. I put color counters into place.

In this case, people complain that once anything was cast black, there is no room for diversity anymore. I really wonder how some people define "diversity", because demanding a whole black The Wiz is certainly not that.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 3:06pm

*opens this thread, fully aware of the BS that it contains*

*gags violently*

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 3:17pm

MikeInTheDistrict said: " They're intentionally coded as African-American tropes, often as broad stock characters that co-opt stereotypes, similar to how black people took up the n-word as a word to use among themselves. The original Wizard of Oz is probably more race-neutral than The Wiz."

I think writing a show with this purpose does not fit society anymore. They might have gotten away with it in the 70's, but remaking a show for 1 race only is toxic. This exclusion behaviour does not suit 2018 anymore.

Especially when the story is not about race and a tin man or a lion should be neutral in my opinion.

I feel whenever the show is done now, we need to make it actually diverse, as equality starts with understanding that it's a 2 way street.

 

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 6/17/18 at 3:20pm

BroadwayRox3588 said: "Just a friendly reminder (because he will inevitably show up eventually): Ignore Dave. His comments don't exist."

*Ahem*