Dear Evan Hansen... What did i just watch?- Page 2

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 4:13pm

I find the last scene to be incredibly phony and shallow, particularly following the reconciliation with his mother, which is probably the show's most genuine moment. One of the show's primary themes is about how suffocating it is to live in a falsehood, and it builds so beautifully to that scene with him and his mom, which is all about discarding those things in favor of a real, flawed human connection. And then the show switches over to the orchard and closes things out with a piece of dramatic writing more suited for a Lifetime Original.

It has nothing to do with something good coming from something bad, or a hopeful message being provided.

[BwayLB]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 4:32pm

^ Retrospectively, I wish the bittersweet ending felt more well earned in the final scene. Especially going back to square one at the cost of an impact on a community built on a lie is not bittersweet at all.

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 4:52pm

One thing I find interesting is how the response to this show reflects the kind of black/white thinking that social media has perpetuated over the last few years: people are either totally irredeemable and bad, or they are good. We have to stumble over each other to condemn or condone the newest villain/hero. It's affecting the way in which we treat works of art: to what extent can/should we separate art from its creator; what can we do about works of art with problematic treatment of race, mental illness, violence, sexuality, etc.; whether such works should be modified or bracketed or even staged at all.

My major issue with DEH is not whether Evan is sympathetic or not. I found his choices relatively understandable in context. However, I felt the show's authors' feinting in the direction of mental illness, without ever really grappling directly with it in any substantive or psychologically-informed way, really off-putting. Evan's diagnosis is never named, and thus the authors absolved themselves of the responsibility for portraying any specific condition accurately. Connor's suicide is dispatched as a plot point; Connor's identity, his motivations, contributing factors, and what would have been the aftermath of his death get sidelined, derailed by the focus on Evan and the lie that snowballs out of control. The veering of focus away from a real, definable and tragic consequence of mental illness (depression, suicidality) to one that the authors seem to have intended as a vague, nebulous stand-in for all manner of alienation or ineffectuality is to me the major problem with this work.

The show is not even 10 years old. It's not like it was written in the dark ages of mental health awareness. The information was out there, readily available, and mental health professionals exist everywhere to consult with on this topic. I feel the same way about Hanya Yanagihara's A LITTLE LIFE; the author has stated they did no research on trauma or psychology in writing a novel that heavily features repeated experiences of sexual assault (and the novel did not come out of the author's own lived experience either). It feels irresponsible and lacking the rigor demanded of these topics NOT to do this research.

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 4:54pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: "I find the last scene to be incredibly phony and shallow, particularly following the reconciliation with his mother, which is probably the show's most genuine moment. One of the show's primary themes is about how suffocating it is to live in a falsehood, and it builds so beautifully to that scene with him and his mom, which is all about discarding those things in favor of a real, flawed human connection. And then the show switches over to the orchard and closes things out with a piece of dramatic writing more suited for a Lifetime Original.

It has nothing to do with something good coming from something bad, or a hopeful message being provided."

See, unlike the OP, to me this is an example of effective criticism. This isn't just "I didn't like him" but an example of why the final scene didn't work for you. And you gave me something to think about. So thanks. 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 5:07pm

I've always wished there was a scene near the end of the show where Evan tells Connor's family that the two of them did share a genuine, if brief, moment of connection when Connor signed his cast. I think this could have provided an opportunity for a more compelling resolution. But what do I know? 

Updated On: 10/28/24 at 05:07 PM

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 6:07pm

joevitus said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

"I don't like DearEvan Hansen" posts are starting to fall into the same category for me as the "Rocky Horror is problematic" posts. The same points recycled over and over and over again, and I just don't care."

Ya must care a little, since you took time from your busy schedule to post at least five times about it. 

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 7:55pm

tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best. 

 

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 8:19pm

Ensemble1698878795 said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best.

"White supremacy”???? Are you out of your mind? 
 

Also, sorry to give you an inconvenient truth, but Jordan Fisher played Evan and so did multiple actors of color.

https://playbill.com/article/jordan-fisher-ends-broadway-run-in-dear-evan-hansen-february-20

 

 

[tacotheatrelover]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 8:52pm

Ensemble1698878795 said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best.

"

dawg what the **** are you talking about

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 9:32pm

I'll clarify for those unable to comprehend. Evan started as a white actor. Replacements eventually would become other races, but the show could've never started that way. There is an inherent compassion and oversight of guilt when it comes to empathizing with white central characters. I'm not expecting you all to agree, but the ability to slide on by and get away with things IS white supremacy. I said what I said and I meant it. 

 

Matt Rogers said: "Ensemble1698878795 said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best.

"White supremacy”???? Are you out of your mind?


Also, sorry to give you an inconvenient truth, but Jordan Fisher played Evan and so did multiple actors of color.

https://playbill.com/article/jordan-fisher-ends-broadway-run-in-dear-evan-hansen-february-20



"

I

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 10:08pm

I couldn’t agree more that Dear Evan Hansen is really about white supremacy! What an insightful new way of looking at this musical. That reminds me of other musical theatre characters that are completely coasting on their whiteness, such as:

Jean Valjean - the priest only gave him those candlesticks and didn’t turn him in because he was white!

The Phantom - He only gets to live in that cool underground lair because of white privlege! And don’t get me started on all of the symbolism inherent in his white mask.

Norma Desmond - obsessed with making a comeback in Hollywood? Ugh, rich white ladies - am I right? More like KAREN Desmond!

Sweeney Todd - it is BECAUSE his skin was pale (and his eye was odd) that no one suspects that he is Benjamin Barker even, though he is literally doing the same job in the same barber shop and is just fifteen years older.

Come to think of it, literally any musical COULD be viewed through the lens of race if one is looking to take all the joy out of it! What a fun game!

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 10:11pm

You think you're being witty, but you just look insensitive and ignorant. Denial brings out reactions like yours, but alas this is too intelligent of a convo for you to comprehend. 

The Distinctive Baritone said: "I couldn’t agree more that Dear Evan Hansen is really about white supremacy! What an insightful new way of looking at this musical. That reminds me of other musical theatre characters that are completely coasting on their whiteness, such as:

Jean Valjean - the priest only gave him those candlesticks and didn’t turn him in because he was white!

The Phantom - He only gets to live in that cool underground lair because of white privlege! And don’t get me started on all of the symbolism inherent in his white mask.

Norma Desmond - obsessed with making a comeback in Hollywood? Ugh, rich white ladies - am I right? More like KAREN Desmond!

Sweeney Todd - it is BECAUSE his skin was pale (and his eye was odd) that no one suspects that he is Benjamin Barker even, though he is literally doing the same job in the same barber shopand is just fifteen years older.

Come to think of it, literally any musical COULD be viewed throughthe lens of race if one is looking to take all the joy out of it! What a fun game!"

 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 10:21pm

It’s people like you who have made conservatives hate us so much that Trump is probably going to get re-elected, but alas, perhaps this is “too intelligent” of a concept for you to comprehend. 

[MezzoDiva47]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 10:23pm

Ensemble1698878795 said: "I'll clarify for those unable to comprehend. Evan started as a white actor. Replacements eventually would become other races, but the show could've never started that way. There is an inherent compassion and oversight of guilt when it comes to empathizing with white central characters. I'm not expecting you all to agree, but the ability to slide on by and get away with things IS white supremacy. I said what I said and I meant it.

yes

this is why the show closed

they were going to hire mandy patinkin as the next evan 

but then they changed the shows logo to hide some of evans face and cynthia erivo had an epic meltdown

and oak quit acting in protest to become a real life firefighter

murica

Updated On: 10/29/24 at 10:23 PM

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 10:31pm

I love it when racism shows up on this board and many of you have a lot to say behind your fake theater screen names. I responded to the original question that was asked at the beginning of this thread, and just because you don't like my answer doesn't make it invalid. I don't care about conservatives. I'm actually concerned by the likes of you that think you're "woke", but when confronted with real life issues that may play into theater story lines you respond with immature mocking rhetoric. You actually are the problem because you revert to racist heckling the moment someone pokes a hole in your theater bubble. 

Sorry that some of us have to live as POC and seeing a white central character cry and lie his way through a show is triggering because we could never in the real world or on stage without consequences. Disagree as you may, but discounting that reality is your racism bubbling to the surface and that's why you're so mad.  

 

The Distinctive Baritone said: "It’s people like you who have made conservatives hate us so much that Trump is probably going to get re-elected, but alas, perhapsthis is “too intelligent” of a concept for you to comprehend."

 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 10:56pm

You realize the reason I’m giving you a hard time is because of your “for those who can’t comprehend,” “this convo is too intelligent for you” nonsense, right? If you had simply stated your point in a reasonable way and not become obnoxious when others disagreed with you, I wouldn’t have said anything.

I’m guessing you are in your early twenties, learned about CRT through TikTok, and have nothing to actually contribute to this conversation other than “I was triggered and everyone is racist,” so I’m going to bow out. Good night!

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 11:05pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "You realize the reason I’m giving you a hard time is because of your “for those who can’t comprehend,” “this convo is too intelligent for you” nonsense, right? If you had simply stated your point in a reasonable way and not become obnoxious when others disagreed with you, I wouldn’t have said anything.

I’m guessing you are in your early twenties, learned about CRT through TikTok, and have nothing to actually contribute to this conversation other than “I was triggered and everyone is racist,” so I’m going to bow out. Good night!"

Nice try. My point was super clear from the get go. You jumped to being a douche with your response, thus me "being obnoxious." You heard white supremacy and couldn't use any self awareness to question why that was even said in reference to the show. Bow out because you've been called you. More of your racism is showing assuming my knowledge is from CRT via Tik Tok. That seems to be more inline with your reactive nature. I have much to contribute to this conversation which is why we're still having it. Voicing something against the grain always gets people in a twist. Doesn't make you right. I said what I said and stand by it regardless to how much it ruffles your feathers. Now post that on Tik Tok. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 11:10pm

Matt Rogers said: "joevitus said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

"I don't like DearEvan Hansen" posts are starting to fall into the same category for me as the "Rocky Horror is problematic" posts. The same points recycled over and over and over again, and I just don't care."

Ya must care a little, since you took time from your busy schedule to post at least five times about it."

You're wrong. Don't confuse my having time on my hands with seeing anything remotely meaningful in such comments.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/28/24 at 11:14pm

I’m a grownup, so I’m not on TikTok.

Hopefully you can educate me more tomorrow. Thank you for this stimulating conversation.

[MezzoDiva47]

Posted: 10/29/24 at 6:01am

Ensemble1698878795 said: "I love it when racism shows up on this board and many of you have a lot to say behind your fake theater screen names. I responded to the original question that was asked at the beginning of this thread, and just because you don't like myanswer doesn't make it invalid. I don't care about conservatives. I'm actually concerned by the likes of you that think you're "woke", but when confronted with real life issues that may play into theater story lines you respond with immature mocking rhetoric. You actually are the problem because you revert to racist heckling the moment someone pokes a hole in your theater bubble.

 

see this is the core issue

race didnt just show up on this board

it was injected into the discussion artificially

hence the reaction youve been receiving

sanity has returned to the landscape, and ppl will no longer tolerate these type of brazen racial assumptions or accusations of racism without concrete evidence to back it up

white folx do need to see through more than the lens of their own experience but so does everyone else in order for this to work

discussions are important but sometimes it simply isnt about race

and thats ok

have a nice day

ps  for the opinion nobody asked for I also dont find the character of EH a sympathetic one for the most part and musings about how that would be altered if race or gender were changed are interesting but as others have said even white male replacement actors werent able to replicate the so-called charisma that ben platt had and thus distract from the flawed writing

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/29/24 at 8:52am

MezzoDiva47 said: "Ensemble1698878795 said: "I love it when racism shows up on this board and many of you have a lot to say behind your fake theater screen names. I responded to the original question that was asked at the beginning of this thread, and just because you don't like myanswer doesn't make it invalid. I don't care about conservatives. I'm actually concerned by the likes of you that think you're "woke", but when confronted with real life issues that may play into theater story lines you respond with immature mocking rhetoric. You actually are the problem because you revert to racist heckling the moment someone pokes a hole in your theater bubble.



see this is the core issue

race didnt just show up on this board

it was injected into the discussion artificially

hence the reaction youve been receiving

sanity has returned to the landscape, and ppl will no longer tolerate these type of brazen racial assumptions or accusations of racism without concrete evidence to back it up

white folx do need to see through more than the lens of their own experience but so does everyone else in order for this to work

discussions are important but sometimes it simply isnt about race

and thats ok

have a nice day

ps for the opinion nobody asked for I also dont find the character of EH a sympathetic one for the most part and musings about how that would be altered if race or gender were changed are interesting but as others have said even white malereplacement actors werent able to replicate the so-called charisma that ben platt had and thus distract from the flawed writing"

Oh I'm sorry, I'm not.  I was unaware you controlled what made the conversation official vs artificial. The thing about whiteness, which you continue to exhibit, is it thinks it controls everything. That it is supreme. If you're gonna try and debunk opinions unlike your own please be smart enough not to exhibit the very behavior I'm talking about. You are further proof while CRT is still necessary. I can see this board is not for the evolved mind. Someone asks "Am I missing something with this show?" I give a response people don't want to hear and suddenly I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Grow up folks. Your racism shows in your reactions. I'm not the first to say DEH got a pass bc of his whiteness. I may be one of the first to say it out loud. 

PS: Just bc racism is mentioned doesn't mean it applies to you. Well unless it does bc many of you flip out. 

 

Updated On: 10/29/24 at 08:52 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 10/29/24 at 11:38am

Ensemble1698878795 said: "It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best."

I agree that, in real life, a troubled White teenager would be given a lot more leeway by those around him than a Black teenager. In fact, I think we see this brand of evil at work every day. Something very similar could be said about the plot of Kimberly Akimbo - in the real world, some of those kids would be putting themselves in much more peril than others, because of the color of their skin.

However, I don't think it makes sense to suggest that White privilege or supremacy is central to the intent or nature of these works. For better or for worse, I don't think the authors want us to consider these issues when seeing these shows. There are other shows that address these topics head-on, but race just isn't a theme of a show like Dear Evan Hansen. Is it okay for a theatrical work in the 21st century to ignore racism and concentrate on other themes? I personally think so and hope so, but I acknowledge that I give that answer from a place of privilege. (I will say that, as a gay man, an atheist, and a neurodivergent person, I certainly don't think any show is obliged to address any of these issues.)

Updated On: 10/29/24 at 11:38 AM

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/29/24 at 12:23pm

kdogg36 said: "Ensemble1698878795 said: "It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best."

I agree that, in real life, a troubled White teenager would be given a lot more leeway by those around him than a Black teenager. In fact, I think we see this brand of evil at workevery day. Something very similar could be said about the plot ofKimberly Akimbo- in the real world, some of those kids would beputting themselves in much more peril than others, because of the color of their skin.

However, I don't think it makes sense to suggestthat White privilege or supremacy is central to the intent or nature of these works. For better or for worse, I don't think the authors want us to consider these issues when seeing these shows. There are other shows that address these topicshead-on, but race just isn't a theme of a show likeDear Evan Hansen. Is it okay for a theatrical work in the 21st century to ignore racism and concentrate on other themes? I personally think so and hope so, but I acknowledge that I give that answer from a place of privilege. (I will say that, as a gay man, an atheist, and a neurodivergent person, I certainly don't think any show is obliged to address any of these issues.)"

Thank you for engaging with understanding. I'm not suggesting that the authors used this tactic knowingly. I'm merely responding to the question that began this thread. I found the story line convoluted and as I dug into why it wasn't more dissected, race popped up for me. Part of Evan's ability to get by is how we look at him in society and regardless if people want to admit it or not, race does play a factor in our biases and pre-conceived notions - even in the theater. 

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 10/29/24 at 12:35pm

Ensemble1698878795 said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best.

"

I don’t think "white supremacy" is the term you want to go with. I believe that has the wrong connotation for your argument. I think that, perhaps, your argument can be made about white privilege, but you would have to ignore that the role has been played by actors of color and it did not really add any subtext or change the feeling of the story, so even that argument would be problematic. I think, when all is said and done, your argument has little merit based on Jordan Fisher's portrayal of the role on Broadway.

[Ensemble1698878795]

Posted: 10/29/24 at 12:40pm

jimmycurry01 said: "Ensemble1698878795 said: "tacotheatrelover said: "I saw the tour last night and i have to ask... did i see a different musical than everyone else? I didn't see some anxiety ridden misunderstood teen on stage (as a high schooler myself, I'm probably one to talk), but rather i saw a narcissistic asshole who lied to a family to sleep with the dead kids sister. Did i miss something? am i supposed to feel anything? help me out here"

It's an excellent score, but the narrative is the definition of white supremacy. If Evan was any other race this show would not have received the same understanding and compassion. It's a twisted plot at best.

"

I don’t think "white supremacy" is the term you want to go with. I believe that has the wrong connotation for your argument. I think that, perhaps, yourargument can be made about white privilege, but you would have to ignore that the role has been played by actors of color and it did not really add any subtext or change the feeling of the story, so even that argument would be problematic. I think, when all is said and done, your argument has little merit based on Jordan Fisher's portrayal of the role on Broadway."

White supremacy fuels the mindset of White privilege. They go hand and hand. Supremacy in DEH is his ability to lie, manipulate and get away without true consequence. Regardless to who replaced, I stand firm that the initial casting helped the character be more palatable to the masses. I'm not seeking your agreement, nor am I expecting you comprehend my point.