How About a Revival of CARNIVAL?

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 2:08pm

With Rob polling members on their choices from a limited field, I randomly elected to play the Original Cast CD of CARNIVAL which I had not played for some time. I still remember seeing this magical musical in 1961 at the matinee performance, and saw the origInal cast including Richard Burton, Julie Andrews, and Robert Goulet in CAMELOT that evening. Which stands out as the better of the two? CARNIVAL, starring Anna Maria Alberghetti, Jerry Orbach, Kaye Ballard, and James Mitchell. It was thrilling theatre because of it's cast but most especially because of the direction/choreography by the legendary Gower Champion.

I am thinking that Susan Stroman could handle the choreography; what about her as director also?

I am not up on the majority of young stars and need Board members' input. The cast calls for an excellent soprano for the part of Lilly, the young naive girl who communicates with puppets; the angry, introspective puppeteer who comunicates with Lilly in a nice way only through his puppets; a Kaye Ballard type as the feisty magician's assistant, and the magician himself.

This show has never been revived and I am not sure whether ENCORES has done it. It is a very worthwhile musical.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 2:14pm

Encores! did it back in 2002 with Brian Stokes Mitchell and little Annie Hathaway.

[Musical Director 109]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 2:48pm

I love that show!!! I know it played at the Kennedy Center in DC a couple of years ago. How was that production received?

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 3:03pm

I really have a great appreciation for the score, but that story surrounding it is a very tough one to sell, especially to today's audiences. Lilli is very hard to cast in that you have to find an actress young enough that you can still believe that she would lose herself to the "reality" of the puppets without coming across as mentally challenged, but not so young that the attention paid to her by both Marco and Paul comes across as creepy. It's a very fine line that has to be walked when casting Lilli.

I admit that I have a very tainted memory of the show due to working on a very poorly cast production of it way back when in undergrad (Lilli was being played by a faculty guest artist who was well past the point where she should have been playing a character that youn), but it does seem to be a problem that has to be very carefully considered when casting the role.

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 3:19pm

I don't think that Lilli losing her reality to the puppets is that big a problem. After all this is theatre, fiction. Back in the early days of television, a nightly show called Kukla, Fran, and Ollie was an enormous success. Fran was the lady who communicated extremely empathetically with two hand puppets named Kukla and Ollie. It may have been fantasy, but it was still believable. Nevertheless, I see your point.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 3:22pm

Goodspeed also just did a production last year, with Lauren Worsham as Lili. Although I've only seen her as Amy in "Where's Charley?" I'm sure she was a delight. I don't know how old she is, but she reads very young.

[daredevil]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 3:53pm

I saw the original Carnival several times and the road company once; I think it would be tough to bring off now. Champion's vision of the world of the play, a run down Carnival group touring Europe, somewhere between the two wars, living from hand to mouth, gave the story a toughness it really needed. The lighting created this shabby world with blues and greens (at least that is the way I remember it). You could really feel Lili's loneliness in that cruel world, and so her hunger to be wanted seemed very moving. I don't know if this is easily recreated---the plot doesn't seem very sophistocated at this time. The music and lyrics capture much of the atmosphere of that world, but in terms of what was written during that time, don't really stand out. I think that is why it has not been revived.

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 3:56pm

Stroman is no Champion. Gower's genius was a total vision of the show in which the choreography was woven expertly into the story. Unfortunately I can't think of a Dir/Choreo who can do that these days.

But I love this show and score and would like to see it back on Broadway (or in a tent somewhere).

[wickedfan]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 5:59pm

The problem with the Lilli/Paul relationship hasn't been the casting of Lilli (though that is crucial), but the casting of Paul. Everyone forgets that Jerry Orbach was just 25 years old when the original production opened, a mere 6 months older than Anna Maria Alberghetti. Compare that to the age difference between Brian Stokes Mitchell and Anne Hathaway (25 years). The relationship between Lilli and Paul wasn't an older man and a much younger woman. It was between two young people, one with an old soul (Paul) and one with a young soul (Lilli).

I agree with daredevil that if you make the glamour of the carnival mesmerizing, but its reality cold, than you can easily justify Lilli's naivete.

I would love to see a Broadway production happen. Preferably with Nicholas Hytner or Bartlett Sher on as director, with Susan Stroman doing choreography. Another crucial element is the designer. I would love to see what Michael Yergen, Bob Crowley, Ian MacNeil, or Rae Smith could do with this show.

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 6:58pm

Very good analysis of the Paul/Lilli relationship, wicked fan. I, too would love to see either director that you mention at the helm.

[AC126748]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 7:10pm

I would like to see Lauren Ambrose play Lili.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 6/29/11 at 9:10pm

I agree with everything that's been written so far about the problems of the Lili/Paul relationship. I'd add that he's extremely abusive toward her. The climax is when he slaps her, but in some ways he's worse to her in an earlier scene, when he abuses her verbally, really torturing her.

He never apologizes to her, and the last thing he does is yell at her, and then they go off together.

Casting a young Paul would help — I think it's absolutely necessary — but it's just an extremely problematic show. I think that a couple of the Champion shows that were hits are very difficult to pull off in revival. Clearly, he staged things so that they worked, but it's not there in the writing.

The show really needs one more song, something for Paul to sing to Lili in the final scene to make us want them to get together. I think that book revisions wouldn't be enough.

it's too bad because there are some very good things about the show. But I agree that it's tough for Lili not to seem mentally challenged (and the original book cut a crucial line from the film that help us to make sense of it, but that line could be restored).

And some of what she sings in "I Hate Him" just complicates the issue. It really makes it seem like she doesn't understand that the puppets are Paul.

The film also has those two ballets, which both really help in their separate ways to make us accept Lili and Paul getting together. It's surprising that the show doesn't have something equivalent to either of them.

Updated On: 6/29/11 at 09:10 PM

[marknyc]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 1:18pm

"...you have to find an actress young enough that you can still believe that she would lose herself to the "reality" of the puppets."

"Carnival" is based on a short story about "Kukla, Fran and Ollie" called "The Man Who Hated People." Paul Gallico wrote it because he loved that Fran Allison, a 40-year-old woman, completely believed in the puppets (as much of the country did at the time).

So it does not need to be a young girl - just someone who can convince you she believes, along with a puppeteer who can emulate the genius of Burr Tillstrom.

Updated On: 7/1/11 at 01:18 PM

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 2:45pm

"So it does not need to be a young girl - just someone who can convince you she believes, along with a puppeteer who can emulate the genius of Burr Tillstrom."

But everything in the Carnival script suggests that she's probably no more than 18. I don't think that Fran Allison really forgot that the puppets were Burr Tillstrom. She was able to enter the world of make believe when performing, but I doubt she was confused about it the rest of the time. Lili truly does seem to be confused about it.

In both the film Lili and in Carnival, the character makes no sense in several ways if she's much more than 18. There are references in the dialogue to her being very young. Those songs are the songs of a teenage girl.

That Gallico story (combined with the other Gallico story, "Love of Seven Dolls") led to Lili, which was essentially more inspired by several elements of the two stories than based closely on them. Lili was a major transformation of two pieces of source material. And then Lili was further transformed for Carnival. The Gallico stories (and the Kukla, Fran and Ollie saga) provide interesting background when looking at Carnival, but the show is different. Lili is different than Fran Allison or either Milly or Mireille.

[marknyc]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 3:07pm

"Lili" and "Carnival" are clearly different from "The Man Who Hated People." ("Love of Seven Dolls" was actually written after the screenplay for "Lili" BTW.)

I agree that Lili is meant to be younger than Milly in TMWHP.

But I disagree that Lili has to actually believe the puppets are real - Fran Allison (and anyone who was a fan of that extraordinary show) obviously knew the Kuklapolitans were puppets. But in spite of that, you just couldn't convince yourself that Buelah Witch, Madame Ooglepuss, Cecil Bill, etc., weren't real. It's strange but absolutely true. Watch a few episodes of KFO and you'll see what I mean.

While Lili shoould be waif-ish, she does not need to actually believe the puppets are alive. She just needs to bond with them as all of us did with the Kuklapolitans. (Fortunately, Burr Tillstrom was nothing like Paul Berthalet - he actually turned down the chance to use the Kuklapolitans in "Lili".)


KFO on DVD Updated On: 7/1/11 at 03:07 PM

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 3:27pm

"While Lili shoould be waif-ish, she does not need to actually believe the puppets are alive."

But she sings this:

"This could be a very pleasant place around here
With Jacquot and Marguerite
And though Renardo steals
He's very sweet
And Carrot Top, but not him!"

She sounds a little confused. Sure, it could be justified, but it's odd.

Do you have a copy of the stage script? Mine is not handy, but I think there's a stage direction when she pulls back the curtain in the last scene to reveal Paul that says something like "Not understanding yet," and that she then says things that certainly sound like up till then she hasn't really understood.

This could be changed, but it does seem that the authors of the musical wanted it to seem that Lili truly didn't understand.

Thanks for the info about "Love of Seven Dolls." And the link. Updated On: 7/1/11 at 03:27 PM

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 3:52pm

marknyc, your description of how Carnival was ultimately motivated by KUKLA, FRAN & OLLIE absolutely fascinates me. When I mentioned KFO earlier in this thread I had no idea of the connection. I started watching KFO on a neighbor's 8 inch TV when I was 7 years old and immediately fell in love with it. I continued watching it for many years and could not wait to see the latest predicament involving Oliver J. Dragon, Beaulah Witch, or Fletcher Rabbit, with the stalwart Kukla arbitrating and Fran Allison warmly making things right in the end. I will have to get that DVD so that I can go back in time.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 4:07pm

The problem is that Lilli has to completely dissociate the puppets from Paul, and I think the only way that she can do that is if she loses herself to the "reality" of the puppets.

I don't remember the exact lines, but at the end, when she pulls back that curtain to reveal Paul, it is something along the lines of "It was you all along?"

And as others have stated, the lyrics and dialogue do point to her being quite young, in her late teens at most. Much older and she does come across as a very (and I stress very) simple minded individual, which, as I stated before, goes too far in the other creepy direction in her relationship with Paul.

I do enjoy the score, and I don't think the difficulties in the script make it completely unworkable. It is just a huge challenge and probably a very tough sell to modern audiences. But if the elements do come together it can be a very delightful show.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/1/11 at 4:14pm

I'd add that even though the musical takes a great deal of dialogue directly from the film, it leaves out a crucial line of Lili's in the last scene. It's something like, "I knew that the puppets were really you, but I'd get so involved with them that I'd forget." That line could be added back, but with so much dialogue from the film, leaving out that line makes it seem like a decision was made that Lili didn't know in the musical.

The musical also has that very nice monologue for Lili near that end that I think isn't in the film, the one about growing up and putting aside childhood.

That bolsters the idea that the creators of the musical wanted it to convey that it's only at the end that Lili grows up enough to understand that Paul is the puppets.
Updated On: 7/2/11 at 04:14 PM

[goldenboy]

Posted: 7/2/11 at 1:43am

As said above... Casting is crucial for Carnival to Work. It is a lovely charming musical with a haunting wonderful Bob Merrill Score.

I acted in a version with Lorna Luft as Lili back in 1980. She would have been much better as Rosalie at a Dinner Theatre.

The review said of Luft "She comes down the aisle looking like a pregnant Maria Von Trap. Why a matronly women would want to play a 17 year old girl is beyond me?"
We hid the review from Lorna.

Nevertheless, this miscasting made our production go THUD. But one day, Lorna didn't show up and the understudy went on who was perfectly cast.

Immediately, with Gloria Boucher (the understudy- I think that was her name) in the role, our production finally came to life. And it was magic.

What a difference casting makes. Casting is crucial.

Revive Carnival.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/2/11 at 9:24am

Gypsy, there's a difference between children believing or adults enjoying the convention that Fran Allyson was interacting with Kukla and Ollie and a whole audience accepting Lili's childlike fascination with puppetry in Carnival. This of course doesn't mean that the show isn't wonderful; but it does mean, as said before, that Lili is a very difficult role to cast. Not only must she have a superb legit soprano but she must also be believable, as the lyric says, as a "grown up girl with the mind of a child."

[jayinchelsea]

Posted: 7/2/11 at 11:52am

As I mentioned in the original "what show should be revived" thread, this is the one that gets my vote. The original production was magical, and a really good revival in the late 60 at City Center with the charming Susan Watson was lovely. And Roundabout did a great workshop version in the 90s with Sarah Uriarte Berry and Howard McGillin. The show keeps circling Broadway, and I am certain that with the right casting of Lili and Paul, it would be a tremendous success. Bartlett Sher has already proved that he knows how to stage a delicate piece (Light in the Piazza) beautifully, yet rise to the occasion for the wonderful "big" moments (South Pacific). And Casey Nicholaw gets my vote for choreographer. Come on, Lincoln Center, Roundabout, MTC, pay attention!

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/2/11 at 12:48pm

I worked with Lauren Worsham on PICNIC AT HANGING ROCK at the O'Neill. Sadly missed her Lilli, but it wouldn't astonish me if she was enchanting. Crazy talented with a stunning voice. She'd be my first choice, for sure!

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/2/11 at 6:34pm

" ,,, and a really good revival in the late 60 at City Center with the charming Susan Watson was lovely."

Susan Watson played Lili on tour and was a Broadway replacement, but it was Victoria Mallory at City Center, with Leon Bibb as Paul, Karen Morrow as Rosalie, and (I think) Richard France as Marco. And perhaps Olaf as Jaquot, but I'm not sure.

The production got some reviews that more or less said, "Why is City Center doing this?!" It was the last City Center revival. Not that the production singlehandedly killed the City Center revivals. I think the money just wasn't there anymore and they probably would have ended around that time even if they'd had a well received show there. But the very mixed reception accorded Carnival (with several major critics really questioning the choice of show) didn't help.

[goldenboy]

Posted: 7/3/11 at 2:34pm

Critics.
They certainly know how to destroy a good thing.
Critics can't act, write plays or direct.
They are just filled with their own self importance.

And often, the get it wrong.