Is "Kiss Me Kate" problematic?- Page 2

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 10:59am

I mean, it was written back when you could just go ahead and rape/beat your wife if she didn't want to have sex with you and that was legally a-ok, so yes, there are probably certain elements of its political outlook that don't quite line up with the past seventy years of social progress. 

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 11:39am

If everyone accepted Shakespeare's tragedies to be a mirror of life, then we would have to believe that no one ever lives to the age of 50, as everyone is either murdered or commits suicide before that age.

Actually there probably would be some who see in The Taming of the Shrew and The Merchant of Venice guidance on how to treat women and Jews. I would like to think that they were already strongly leaning in that direction.

I think that you just have to live with plays like this. In this country we don't as a rule go around censoring the spoken word because it speaks ideas with which we do not agree. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes about 90 years ago stated the best known exception, the "clear and present danger." The Supreme Court substituted the less elegant phrase “imminent lawless action” when it elaborated on the Holmes' phrase in 1969.

If enough people find those plays too objectionable, then they will rarely be presented. I suspect that this is already true in the cases of Shrew and Venice.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 11:55am

Charley Kringas Inc said: "I mean, it was written back when you could just go ahead and rape/beat your wife if she didn't want to have sex with you and that was legally a-ok, so yes, there are probably certain elements of its political outlook that don't quite line up with the past seventy years of social progress."

Exactly 

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:14pm

Charley Kringas Inc said: "[...]there are probably certain elements of its political outlook that don't quite line up with the past seventy years of social progress."

But if those elements are removed from the show, how can anyone recognize the progress that's been made? 

For myself, it's very possible to see that juxtaposing Shakespeare's work (in its timeframe, and as a fictional, show-within-a-show) against the reality of "the-here-and-now" (well, "reality" at least at the time the show was written) demonstrates the progress that was achieved up to that era. Has there been more progress since? Of course. 

Just a reminder that the "spanking" element in the show is portrayed as fiction, as is the song, "I Am Ashamed..."

It's interesting to me that so far, I've not seen any comments about Lilli pummeling Fred (because of what she discovered in the "real" world). Although Lilli's attack of Fred is "real", Fred's spanking her is done in character, and in complete context of the fictional show.

Also, I don't think the character of Lilli is communicating the text of "I am Ashamed..." to Fred verbatim. 

She's speaking (singing) the text of the fictional character she is portraying, at the point in the fictional show where it occurs. I doubt very much that the emotion/subtext she is conveying to Fred in the "real world" is anywhere near as subservient. I think her subtext is more along the lines of an apology.

Updated On: 7/22/18 at 12:14 PM

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:25pm

John Adams said: "Charley Kringas Inc said: "[...]there are probably certain elements of its political outlook that don't quite line up with the past seventy years of social progress."

But if those elements are removed from the show, how can anyone recognize the progress that's been made?

 

i agree 

For myself, it's very possible to see that juxtaposing Shakespeare's work (in its timeframe, and as afictional, show-within-a-show) against the realityof"the-here-and-now" (well, "reality" at least at the time the show was written) demonstrates the progress that was achieved up to that era. Has there been more progress since? Of course.

Just a reminder that the "spanking" element in the show is portrayed as fiction, as is the song, "I Am Ashamed..."

It's interesting to me that so far, I've not seen any comments about Lilli pummeling Fred (because of what she discoveredin the "real" world). Although Lilli's attack of Fredis "real", Fred's spanking her is done in character, and in complete context of the fictional show.

Also, I don't think the character of Lilli is communicating the text of "I am Ashamed..." to Fred verbatim.

She's speaking (singing) the text of thefictional character she isportraying, at the point in the fictionalshowwhere it occurs. I doubt very much that the emotion/subtext she is conveying to Fred in the "real world" is anywhere near as subservient. I think her subtext is more along the lines of an apology."

I agree that Lilli pummelling Fred is just as problematic.

The soabking is not Petrouchio, it’s Fres. He warns Lilli that if she keeps ad-libbing he’s going to spank her on stage...and does.

 

’I Am Ashamed That Women Are So Sinple’ is Katharine within the show, within the show -yes but none the less it’s how the overall evening ends. The most recent Broadway production describes both characters as being the shrewd, because they behave equally badly but again the issue is that in 2018 we are creating theatre that examines every line of text in a much more real context than why might’ve done 50 years ago. Why can’t expect a production to treat a musical with the same reverence as a ‘sacred’ play text and to make the characters and situations on Broadway musical stages as rich and complex as they deserve to be with today’s standards of story telling and at the same time forget about the questionable aspects. The minute actors of Kelli O’ Hara’s calibre work on material like this, it’s not a bus a truck tour in 1952 standard of acting - the world created on stage is real, so therefore the abuse becomes all the more real within the story. Again, I think in a show like  ‘My Fair Lady’ a director could choose to leave the ending as written and allow a modern audience to react as they will because the writing stands up. In ‘Kiss Me, Kate’ (which I adore) the audience is being asked to applaud true love and musical comedy happy sing song ever after

[Owen22]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:31pm

John Adams said: "It's interesting to me that so far, I've not seen any comments about Lilli pummeling Fred (because of what she discoveredin the "real" world). Although Lilli's attack of Fredis "real", Fred's spanking her is done in character, and in complete context of the fictional show."'

Really?  Really?? 

This kind of false equivalency drives me nuts. I'm sure you believe in "reverse racism" as well.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:35pm

And it’s not. It’s Fred spanking

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:37pm

GavestonPS said: "Is the ending of KATE really much worse than, "Eliza, where are my slippers?" Seems to me they both end in a similar fashion and MY FAIR LADY is not the broad comedy that is KISS ME, KATE. (I'm not saying humor excuses everything, but the broader the comedy the less we are asked to take the proceedings seriously.)"

Gaveston, I suggest that in terms of "problematics," KATE is actually much better than MY FAIR LADY.

KATE takes a chauvinist classic - one of Shakespeare's plays that defines identity "problematics" -  and maintains a spirit of Chauvinism - a spirit far more lighthearted and less problematic than SHREW.

MY FAIR LADY takes as anti-chauvinist classic and, at least in its original - some would say canonical - form, revisions its source by letting the Chauvinist win.  
 

 

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:43pm

...and what about the character of Lois? Typically, it would be a male who is characterized as a roustabout/playboy, but in KMK, it's Lois who explains how she's "Always true to you, Darlin' in my fashion..."

KMK, takes stereotypes of men and women and reverses their roles. Lilli is an aggressor,  and Lois is a playboy. In its era, I think that was an interesting experiment.

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:45pm

Owen22 said: "Really? Really??"

Yup.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 1:11pm

John Adams said: "...and what about the character of Lois? Typically, it would be a male who is characterized as a roustabout/playboy, but in KMK, it's Lois who explains how she's "Always true to you, Darlin' in my fashion..."

KMK, takes stereotypes of men and women and reverses their roles. Lilli is an aggressor, and Lois is a playboy. In its era, I think that was an interesting experiment."

The above cites many of the things I love however all it is undermined when in the final scene Lois Lane as Bianca, must listen to her sister speak on the virtues of being subservient to a man. Even though she is playing her ‘Shrew’ character at that point the stories mirror each other, we as an audience only get to see these characters have that ending.

If it was me, I’d have Lilli run on stage only to see her understudy singing to Fred’s understudy as he has gone after hethe, they then find each other backstage and share a laugh at the ludicrous song whilst dancing together to the ‘Kiss Me, Kate Finale’ or some other revisionist ending - I’d just have to block after eight and change my address...

[Owen22]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 1:53pm

John Adams said: "Owen22 said: "Really? Really??"

Yup."

I noticed you addressed ME but not your mistaken post that it isn't Fred but "Petruchio" doing the spanking. Sorta blows up your whole narrative...

 

 

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 1:58pm

Owen22 said: "I noticed you addressed ME but not your mistaken post that it isn't Fred but "Petruchio" doing the spanking. Sorta blows up your whole narrative..."

Nope.

Updated On: 7/22/18 at 01:58 PM

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 2:08pm

Loopin’theloop said: "I’d just have to block after eight and change my address..."



(...although I may be one of only a few who appreciates AfterEight's presence here. He's my favorite curmudgeon.)

 

[Owen22]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 2:27pm

John Adams said: "Owen22 said: "I noticed you addressed ME but not your mistaken post that it isn't Fred but "Petruchio" doing the spanking. Sorta blows up your whole narrative..."

Nope."

Well...yeah, dude..it sorta definitely does...but you keep on keepin' on...

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 5:08pm

Owen22 said: "John Adams said: "Owen22 said: "I noticed you addressed ME but not your mistaken post that it isn't Fred but "Petruchio" doing the spanking. Sorta blows up your whole narrative..."

Nope."

Well...yeah, dude..it sorta definitely does...but you keep on keepin' on..."

It is absolutely undoubtedly FRED who does the spanking and not his counterpart in the play, Petrouchio. Otherwise Lilli wouldn’t be on the phone to her fiancée talking about it. Plus Fred literally warns her that he will do it