Is "Kiss Me Kate" problematic?

[Owen22]

Posted: 7/19/18 at 9:04pm

Of course it is.  A ballsy woman is spanked, held captive by two men and then is forced to sing a song of subservience at the end.  Plus Kelly O'Hara is miscast, but that's a production specific problem..

[haterobics]

Posted: 7/19/18 at 9:06pm

Owen22 said: "A ballsy woman is spanked, held captive by two men and then is forced to sing a song of subservience at the end."

It's only a problem if she didn't consent to this. Your morality doesn't outshine her agency.

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 7/19/18 at 9:11pm

Oh lord.

[Owen22]

Posted: 7/19/18 at 9:19pm

haterobics said: "Owen22 said: "A ballsy woman is spanked, held captive by two men and then is forced to sing a song of subservience at the end."

It's only a problem if she didn't consent to this. Your morality doesn't outshine her agency."

Ummm...I don't think it's morality we have to worry about...

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 2:53am

The comedy is so broad that it's hard to assign much political portent to the show, although there are those who will try.

I'll be interested to see how this role fits with Kelli O'Hara's vow to only do roles that are meaningful.

https://youtu.be/IOZOVdhbusA?t=1487

[Mr. Nowack]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 2:57am

LOL I hop back on this site on a whim and this is the sh tstorm that's brewing. Definitely taking a 180 back outta here.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 8:50am

I do think the spanking and ‘I Am Ashamed That Women’ are so simple are problematic. It’s one of my absolute favourite musicals, I adore it but I always wince at the end.

[rjm516]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 9:31am

Well yeah, and The Taming of the Shrew is super problematic and offensive too. I hope that like some great productions of the latter, this revival of Kate can address that with strong directional choices.

[robskynyc]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 9:48am

this POST is problematic. :-p

[Kad]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 9:55am

Taming of the Shrew is 100%  problematic and has been considered so for a very long time. But Kiss Me, Kate as a property isn't a straightforward adaptation of Taming of the Shrew.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 10:15am

Oh, for crying out loud.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 11:25am

Elfuhbuh said: "Oh, for crying out loud."

you really don’t think the ending is questionable in 2018?

 

[JayG 2]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 11:40am

NO.

[Elegance101]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 11:55am

I agree about the broad comedy thing for most of the show, but "I'm Ashamed That Women Are So Simple" is not comedic and is, in fact, a little cringeworthy. Interested to see how it's received in the revival.

[green waver]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 12:08pm

Correct me if I'm wrong(I know someone here will) , but isn't "I am ashamed..." the one lyric in the play that Porter derived directly from Shakespeare? Amazing the longevity of cringeworthy sentiments.

[Elegance101]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 12:10pm

green waver said: "Correct me if I'm wrong(I know someone here will) , but isn't "I am ashamed..." the one lyric in the play that Porter derived directly from Shakespeare? Amazing the longevity of cringeworthy sentiments."

The entire song is word-for-word the speech set to music. Basically, Shakespeare wrote the lyrics to that song.

[Rainah]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 12:54pm

- this thread is a terrible idea

- yes

- what we consider problematic, harmful, stereotypical, etc evolves as we as a culture do. You're going to run into this problem with the majority of revivals. Also, pretty much everything has at least one thing that people consider problematic. It's up to the individual to determine where that line lies for them in terms of supporting/seeing a show (Though they should still be understanding and acknowledging the flaws in the material) 

[robskynyc]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 1:59pm

Rainah said: "what we consider problematic, harmful, stereotypical, etc evolves as we as a culture do. You're going to run into this problem with the majority of revivals. Also, pretty much everything has at least one thing that people consider problematic. It's up to the individual to determine where that line lies for them in terms of supporting/seeing a show (Though they should still be understanding and acknowledging the flaws in the material)"

perfectly said. reminds me of the carousel revival and all the hooplah about the changed ending.

 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 2:48pm

I think these types of conversations can actually be really informative on both sides. I also think we can say there are problematic aspects to many shows (classical or modern) but also talk about intent, context of time, and the actual harm. Just because something has problematic aspects does not mean we should dismiss all of the other qualities that make a work really stand out (and gain near legendary status) nor should we dismiss criticisms and be super defensive of works because we're that afraid that listening to valid critiques some how degrades the show or will ruin the show's reputation. 

 

[blm2323]

Posted: 7/20/18 at 2:54pm

The previous revival had Kate wink at the audience at the end of the song, clearly stating that she would not be submitting.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/21/18 at 7:48am

green waver said: "Correct me if I'm wrong(I know someone here will) , but isn't "I am ashamed..." the one lyric in the play that Porter derived directly from Shakespeare? Amazing the longevity of cringeworthy sentiments."

Yes, it is word for word taken from the Shakespeare text. Doesn’t make it any less problematic.

[Owen22]

Posted: 7/21/18 at 11:17am

robskynyc said: "this POST is problematic. :-p"'

I'm unsure why your feel that way.  Should these things not be addressed ever?  Or do you quibble that bringing it up my bring focus and spotlight the show in the way that proved controversial for two recent revivals and that unnerves you?  I'm confused by your response...

 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 12:00am

Is the ending of KATE really much worse than, "Eliza, where are my slippers?" Seems to me they both end in a similar fashion and MY FAIR LADY is not the broad comedy that is KISS ME, KATE. (I'm not saying humor excuses everything, but the broader the comedy the less we are asked to take the proceedings seriously.)

 

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 10:36am

GavestonPS said: "Is the ending of KATE really much worse than, "Eliza, where are my slippers?" Seems to me they both end in a similar fashion and MY FAIR LADY is not the broad comedy that is KISS ME, KATE. (I'm not saying humor excuses everything, but the broader the comedy the less we are asked to take the proceedings seriously.)

"

It depends what you want from the production as a team. ‘My Fair Lady’ only has a tricky ending if you want your audience to leave with a skip in their step, having watched a romantic musical comedy - I think if you are going to choose to allow the relationship to played for real and for us to accept that both characters are flawed but have somehow grown together - then the writing of the show is fleshed out enough that in can succeed on those terms although possibly not on a commercial scale as the newest broadway obviously felt they had an issue on their hands.

’Kiss Me, Kate’ has none of the depth of the former show, it’s an unashamed musical comedy and a very well written one at that - what is problematic here is that the actions of the characters that could be easily accepted when it premiered cannot now. If this was an examination of the two characters then fine but it isn’t, is jubilant musical comedy which makes the questionable behaviour all the more tricky 

 

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 7/22/18 at 10:59am

I mean, it was written back when you could just go ahead and rape/beat your wife if she didn't want to have sex with you and that was legally a-ok, so yes, there are probably certain elements of its political outlook that don't quite line up with the past seventy years of social progress.