Lack of English accents in Sweeney Todd - WTF?- Page 4

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:13pm

Well...I just lumped you in with Pal Joey to remind him just much younger I am! So the party foul is totally mine.

I've spent a lot of time, though, putting negativity into the world (and, specifically, on here), and I regret it. Well. Let me amend that. I don't mind being a bitch a lot of times...but I try not to put too much negative stuff about fellow actors here and elsewhere. I know how hard and sh*tty it is to be an actor, and should know better than to be a d*ck about the people I work with (or will work with). So I get a little testy when people take something I've said as a slight against someone else. It's not the case. If I'm writing nice things about a particular performance, it doesn't mean I'm saying negative things about someone else's performance of the same role.

If I AM going to tear apart an actor's performance (something I did very recently), I try to do it live, in person and with many, many gestures.

[sparrman]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:15pm

Wonkit -- But there's no such thing as "neutral" or "non-accented". Your backstory would only make sense if he was in the penal colony with a whole bunch of Americans and/or Canadians.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:19pm

wonkit, I'm not convinced there was an "Australian" accent at the time of the play. It takes place in the 1840s, a mere half-century after transportation to Australia began. By and large, the convicts would have retained whatever British dialect they brought with them.

***

henrik, I think Mrs. Lovett's lyrics require the Cockney accent. They would sound odd otherwise.

***

best12, I so rarely disagree with you, but surely in this democracy we are past the point of judging a tragic agent based on the class of his birth. If we see Todd as truly tragic, it is because we believe in justice and support his attempt to achieve it in the only way available to him.

Arthur Miller's essay, "Tragedy and the Common Man" is apt here. Miller writes that modern, democratic audiences are engaged by a tragic agent's struggle for dignity, not the nobility of his birth. And surely that is Todd's aim: to restore his dignity as a human being when he has been treated as an animal.

(As I'm sure you know, Miller had little patience for descriptions of Willie Loman as an "anti-hero". To Miller, Loman was a tragic hero, just as Oedipus or Hamlet; but Loman was a modern hero, designed for a democratic audience.)

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:20pm

Also, qolbinau is from Australia, so he probably knows about it being a penal colony.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:23pm

Somehow I imagine Sweeney Todd doing nothing in Australia for 15 years but plotting to return to England and take vengeance on Judge Turpin. I seriously doubt Todd was taking elocution lessons.

[ChiChi]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:24pm

Let us not forget the irish accent Len used many time on Murder She Wrote.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:27pm

No problem, Robbie. No offense given and none taken. You have every right to clarify your remarks.

(I, too, have resolved to be more civil on this board. And I'm finding my experience here much more pleasant.

For different reasons, I share your reluctance to trash actors. Not being an actor myself, I have great respect for what ya'll do and I'm also aware you aren't always in control of the choices you are instructed to make. Particularly in productions with a lot of "bad acting", I tend to blame the director.)

(ETA Confidential to Robbie: Joey is a couple of years younger than I. He may not appreciate being lumped in with an old geezer such as myself.) Updated On: 8/23/12 at 08:27 PM

[sparrman]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:30pm

Thanks ChiChi! I had no idea. It's not a full-out brogue, but it suggests to me that he could indeed have done an effective British accent of one kind or another as Sweeney, had he been called upon to do so.



It's at about 6:15 here. Updated On: 8/23/12 at 08:30 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:31pm

ChiChi, I'm not an expert on dialects. But I did see Len Cariou in APPLAUSE and in other shows since SWEENEY. He's doing something different as Todd, even if it isn't a technically correct East End accent.

I have no doubt the man could have done whatever English accent was required if that were what the creative team wanted.

Updated On: 8/23/12 at 08:31 PM

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:51pm

As an Englishman, I couldn't resist commenting...sorry...!

First of all, to those who use the phrase, there is no such thing as "a British accent". The United Kingdom is comprised of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. A Glaswegian accent is just as British as standard RP, but obviously wildly different. A pedantic point maybe, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

Secondly, I don't know *what* Angela Lansbury was doing in Sweeney Todd, but it wasn't cockney and it wasn't English and I've always found it incredibly distracting, regardless of the otherwise great turn she did in the role. Her counterpart in the (ill-fated) London production of the Hal Prince original, Sheila Hancock, sounds absolutely right in the role (of course it helps given her background). But to me Lansbury's accent in Sweeney Todd is as bizarre and alien as LuPone's is. Neither of them exist anywhere in the world and are unique to those two performers.

Thirdly, completely agree Ashley Brown was absolutely terrible with her attempted accent in Poppins. I *would* describe it as appalling. It's one of the two main reasons I decided not to see the production on Broadway (the other being the show's sad watering down to become safe, family-friendly and more familiar to audiences expecting the Disney film), even though I loved the show in London.

Finally, I do think it's important for actors to be able to handle accents. It's as basic a skill as say, singing or dancing. OK, maybe not quite so fundamental, but almost. It's pretty standard for actors on this side of the pond to be able to emulate American accents to a reasonable degree; I don't know why the reverse can't be the case on Broadway. True it helps that every other country is so saturated by American culture that American English is everyone's second language here (whereas few in the US are fluent in British English) and thus feigning American accents is virtually second nature to many (although not all) British actors, but regardless, I think it's important.

Updated On: 8/23/12 at 08:51 PM

[sparrman]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 8:58pm

To be even more pedantic, there IS such a thing as "a British accent" in the case of "Why didn't Len Cariou use a British accent?". Meaning, "any one of the many possible varieties", rather than the American/Canadian accent he did use.

Updated On: 8/23/12 at 08:58 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 9:08pm

Well, if we're going to be pedantic, then the correct question would be "Why didn't Len Carious use some British accent?" Not "a", since the reference is to plural possibilities.

***

Thanks for the "home town" perspective, Scorpion. As I wrote above, I've worked with Angela and, among other things, she is a superb technician. I'm sure she can do authentic Cockney if she chooses.

But with patter songs such as "Worst Pies in London" would an American audience understand her with an authentic Cockney accent? I doubt it. The lyrics are tough enough to hear with her modified version.

Knowing the team involved (some personally, some by reputation), I suspect very specific decisions were made as to just how far to go with accents for American ears.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 9:13pm

Finally, I do think it's important for actors to be able to handle accents. It's as basic a skill as say, singing or dancing. OK, maybe not quite so fundamental, but almost.

But there are lots of actors that neither sing nor dance.

[Kad]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 9:17pm

I just accept a deliberate non-accent as a convention. We know they're in London. The piece isn't realistic and Prince didn't stage it realistically. Angela's accent was a sort of shorthand for lower-class, a pidgin Cockney almost. If anything, the accent work and lack thereof heightened the Brechtian elements of the musical.

[sparrman]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 9:19pm

Sorry Gaveston, that's just not true. If I ask you "Would you like to see a Broadway show?" it wouldn't be incorrect. But you might properly respond "Which one?"

Updated On: 8/23/12 at 09:19 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 10:42pm

I'll grant you that "an English accent" isn't technically incorrect. How about we split the difference and just add a letter, sparrman?

"Why didn't Len Cariou use an(y) English accent?" would be more precise and therefore better phrasing.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 10:45pm

Good point, Kad. After reading this thread, I'm convinced that Prince, Sondheim & Co. made deliberate choices with an ear to what Americans could grasp in live performance. Let's face it, it's a demanding score by American musical standards even without accents.

Until this thread, quite frankly, I was never bothered by the lack of authentic dialect.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 10:51pm

(ETA Confidential to Robbie: Joey is a couple of years younger than I. He may not appreciate being lumped in with an old geezer such as myself.)

As Lotte Lenya once sang,

"When you're as old as I--
Is anyone as old as I?--
What difference does it make?
And offer come? You take!"

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:14pm

Ain't THAT the truth, Joey!

[ChiChi]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:17pm

ChiChi, I'm not an expert on dialects. But I did see Len Cariou in APPLAUSE and in other shows since SWEENEY. He's doing something different as Todd, even if it isn't a technically correct East End accent.

Wow...I like how you came to the conclusion! My plan is to put the cast recording for Sweeney on my phone and pay close attention tomorrow.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:20pm

ChiChi, you might want to compare Cariou in A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC and SWEENEY. Very different characters and nationalities, but both are "European".

I'll try the comparison myself if I get a chance...

[justoldbill]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:25pm

The role of Mrs. Lovett is written in a broad "music hall" style (as opposd to simply "cockney") not used by the other characters in the play, at least until she dramatically shifts gears late in Act 2. The role is less "As Long As He Needs Me" ("Not While I'm Around"), and more "Oom Pah, Pah" ("Worst Pies In London").

Updated On: 8/23/12 at 11:25 PM

[TheatreFreak05]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:27pm

"If an actor can't do an accent, they shouldn't be an actor."

I don't think I've ever heard anything more ridiculous... What the actual f*ck

[ChiChi]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:35pm

It is a bit narrow minded. Perhaps if it read

"If an actor can't do an accent, they shouldn't do a show if accents will be required."

Not that an accent is necessarily required of course.

Updated On: 8/23/12 at 11:35 PM

[My Oh My]

Posted: 8/23/12 at 11:52pm

"I just accept a deliberate non-accent as a convention. We know they're in London. The piece isn't realistic and Prince didn't stage it realistically. Angela's accent was a sort of shorthand for lower-class, a pidgin Cockney almost. If anything, the accent work and lack thereof heightened the Brechtian elements of the musical."

This post lowered my blood pressure.

Thank you, Kad.