Lack of English accents in Sweeney Todd - WTF?- Page 6

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 6:51pm

In re Sondheim, in his recent books he devotes considerable length to discussing the difference between the ways words are pronounced in New York and elsewhere, differences I hadn't even noticed while living there. So I'm sure his intention is to accommodate correct dialect in his rhyme patterns, but he is a lyricist, not a dialectician.

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 6:55pm

I just want to know why New York productions of Sweeney say Sidewalks instead of Pavements. That's a whole different ball game.

[MusicalBoy]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 6:57pm

Also, with regards to Night Music, 'mam' isn't supposed to rhyme with 'grand', ' delivered by hand' rhymes with 'grand', which thankfully is true even with a British accent :)

[binau]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 7:03pm

ohlol, of course.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 7:04pm

I just want to know why New York productions of Sweeney say Sidewalks instead of Pavements. That's a whole different ball game.

Because to Americans, "pavement" is always used in the singular and usually refers to the asphalt road itself as opposed to the concrete sidewalk. But you know that, am I right?

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 7:09pm

Of course, but in the UK it's a pavement!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 7:15pm

Oh, I believe you, ClapYo'Hands! I suspect Sondheim knows it as well (certainly by now!)

But like any playwright he has to decide whether verisimilitude is worth having the audience chatter, "Pavements? What are they talking about?" in the middle of his song. I'm exaggerating slightly; in a song that complex, the word would probably pass by without much comment.

But it might mean the difference between the audience understanding the line or not.

Or it could just be a mistake.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 7:19pm

Of couurse, there was no such thing as a sidewalk in those days...

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 8:13pm

Is that true, Diva? Didn't they have wooden sidewalks, at least in big cities like New York and Boston? And "pavements" in London?

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 8:15pm

Oh, I believe you, ClapYo'Hands! I suspect Sondheim knows it as well (certainly by now!)

But like any playwright he has to decide whether verisimilitude is worth having the audience chatter, "Pavements? What are they talking about?" in the middle of his song. I'm exaggerating slightly; in a song that complex, the word would probably pass by without much comment.

But it might mean the difference between the audience understanding the line or not.

Or it could just be a mistake.

Two other oversights/mistakes in the libretto of Sweeney Todd (that is, if Sondheim expected Mrs Lovett to sing in an English accent, be it cockney or otherwise) are the rhyme of 'traced' and 'erased' in 'A Little Priest' (these words definitely don't rhyme in British English) and the rhyming of 'esplanade' and 'blade' in 'By the Sea'. This latter point is up to debate, though; I have heard 'esplanade' said both as 'es-pla-nahd' and 'es-pla-nayde' in the UK. Not sure which, if either, is more correct.





Updated On: 8/24/12 at 08:15 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 8:20pm

We usually say "espla-nahde" in the States, but I always took Lovett's "espla-nayde" as an indicator of her lack of education. To me, her entire character is about lower-middle-class aspiration beyond one's level of sophistication.

How are "traced" and "erased" pronounced, Scorpion? (Sorry to be so pedantic. I am endlessly fascinated by language.)

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 8:22pm

In British English, the 's' in 'erased' is pronounced like a 'z', so the word would rhyme with words like 'grazed', 'raised', 'amazed' and not words like 'traced', 'based', 'raced', 'placed'.


Yes, the lack of education point is how I 'explained' Mrs Lovett's pronunciation of 'esplanade' to myself, so it's possible she would say that authentically.

Updated On: 8/24/12 at 08:22 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 8:26pm

Thank you, Scorpion. I actually do have British friends. (We have a lot of ex-pats here in Southern California.)

But I don't carry Henry Higgins' notebook with me when we get together. LOL.

The erased/traced sounds like a lyricist's error to me. Or maybe since those lines are essential to the plot, Sondheim might have decided the exposition was more important than perfect diction.

Updated On: 8/24/12 at 08:26 PM

[Musicaldudepeter]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 8:32pm

Waste rhymes with Traced in the lyric. 'Seems a downright shame...seems an awful waste...........etc.... Nor it can't be traced.'

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:00pm

Actually, I think it's a triple rhyme: waste, erased, traced. At least that's how Angela and everybody else sings it. As I said, I think the triple rhymes (and gift/thrift/drift follow closely) are intended to insure the audience hears what is a major plot development. THE major plot development, actually.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:07pm

I never like it when lyricists try to rhyme "rain" with "again."

Blah.

Or they take the soft British "r"s at the end of words and rhyme them as if they were an "ah" sound.

Even "Fah---a long, long way to go," always made me itch.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:16pm

^^^Yes, yes, and yes.

(I think Hammerstein got away with "Fa, a long, long way to go" only because the entire song sounds like it was written for children.)

Updated On: 8/24/12 at 10:16 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:32pm

I agree. It was definitely done with humor.

I also think it feels spontaneous, as if Maria really is making it up off the top of her head, and it's not quite right ... but it will do.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:34pm

Fa is a long, long way to run, thank you very much! :)

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:35pm

Thank you!

Because run rhymes with sun, not go, you know.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:36pm

So do!

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:40pm

Doe -- some change I used to have.
Ray -- a guy I used to know.
Me -- myself, I love myself.
Fa -- there's not a word called Fa.

So --- so--o-o-o-o so what?
La --- lalalalalalalala!
Te -- heeheeheeheeheehee.

This is why I shouldn't make up lyrics on the spot.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 8/24/12 at 10:50pm

Thank you, Phyllis! I've been singing that lyric wrong for 50 years. No wonder it never gets a hand! LOL.

[ClapYo'Hands]

Posted: 8/25/12 at 2:30am

I know it's only one small line in an otherwise perfect show, but it was just odd noticing the sidwalks lyric. Especially since a) it's sung in a very strong American accent on the OBC b) it was changed to pavements for the original London production, and as far as I can tell has been such in all London productions since; however, it was changed back to sidewalks for the NYC Opera production and possibly other NYC productions (that part of the song did not exist in the 2005 revival.

This is probably the most interesting thread we've had here in a while, though!

[vassey]

Posted: 8/25/12 at 8:42am

I'm British, and have never heard esplanade pronounced as es-pla-nard, only as though it rhymed with lemonade.